Editor's note: It's the seventh article of a series of interviews under the topic: Cultivate a New Generation of Chinese Christian Leaders (see article one, article two, article three, article four, article five, and article six). A pastor named Zeng Weicheng (pseudonym), who was born in the 1970s in southeast China and serves in the church part-time, shared his views with the Christian Times, an online Christian newspaper in China.
Christian Times: What do you think of the urgent need for Chinese churches to train the new generation of pastors?
Pastor Zeng Weicheng: I think training the new generation of pastors is essential. As a preacher trained after China's reform and opening up policy, I found a problem that most of our previous generation of shepherds did not hand over to others until they died. As a result, there was a massive gap in the church during the handover. It should be the result of less consideration of inheritance among the leaders of the early generation, and the estate and development of the church were delayed by the concept of "serving the Lord faithfully until death."
They did not put the training of the new generation of pastors in a critical position, especially in China. After China's reform and opening up, a new generation of leaders rose and had such ideas. For example, Dr. John Sung had competent co-workers, but it was not the case for the later co-workers. This is because the successors were not well established and had a solid leading style, which skipped the spiritual influence of the next generation and the hometown churches. The problem lies in inheritance.
When the leaders born in the 1950s took the lead, they would consider more than the previous leaders. When the new generation leaders rise, they argue with the old generation leaders. Some would say about the latest theological ideas and insist on the lousy saying: "Let theology be like theology." Their so-called theology is to receive directly from the Bible.
The pastors of my church position themselves to hand over the work by the age of 65 altogether. It would be 60 if someone could pick up my work. I think the best candidate would be those in their early 40s. If a college graduate in his twenties is determined to take over, I will train him. As preparing a preacher would need at least five to ten years, we group them into candidates in their 40s, 50s, and 60s. I think this step-by-step culture mode is the best. I also promised to follow Moses in teaching his successor, Joshua. It would take a long time, and I would show my successor how I work. I am willing to train young people.
Christian Times: What criteria do you think the church should have in finding and establishing the successors?
Pastor Zeng Weicheng: The criteria for preparing and training the successors are loyalty, the willingness to be taught, and humility. These are the most basic conditions. We can usually find out his attitude when he is loyal. After that, he must be willing to be taught and accept discipline and advice. It is no way to ignore the direction of the old shepherds. The last one is humility. Humility is essential, and he cannot feel that he does not need to change anymore, which is terrible. The way I train successors is to coach them and let them see it by themselves. I would live with them for a few days and let them see how I live. Jesus and Paul's practice are the best examples of our successor's training, and so is Paul teaching to his successor Timothy.
Christian Times: Can you share the specific operation and experience of successor training?
Pastor Zeng Weicheng: Our old pastors should establish a good church constitution. For example, retired senior pastors should make a plan to help their successors. These old pastors need to formulate the handover system and rules to avoid possible problems in the next generation.
I disagree that the new generation of baton takers will appear by air, and they can't let go at once. The old shepherd must gradually lead the recent baton takers to the top. The congregation is reluctant to accept the parachuting of a new baton receiver. Then we are the old and the young. When we are young, we will gradually let him go on stage from less to more and naturally make a transition to it. There is another model, the Presbyterian governance team, which will play a guiding role in the governance of the whole church. Many churches can establish a church advisory Committee, which will set the tone and adjust the direction. Pastors need to pass on culture.
If the church has good inheritance, it will produce good things like cell division. During this pandemic in the past two years, why did some churches run in place while others were more active instead? Because the active churches have already been prepared in this regard.
I feel that the cultivation of authentic leaders is from minor aspects. The group leaders you are cultivating may be the future leader in China. So we can start with universal cultivation. I lead 15 groups now, each of which has a leader and a deputy leader. When we walk around groups of so many different people, we can find some are special and know how to lead.
When we built up this structure, it would copy itself like cell division to make the church smaller. This way, we will train more new pastors, who will have the opportunity to get practice. When they enter the church, we will have three generations of pastors.
Christian Times: What do you think of the church pastors leaving their ministries because of economic reasons, interpersonal relationships, or theological differences?
Pastor Zeng Weicheng: I am a part-time pastor in the church, and I also have a job. In the army, there are two kinds of soldiers, the army and reserve soldiers. I will try to put the right people in the right place for training in the church. In this process, some would leave, which is normal. Even if he leaves, I believe he can become a pastor when he goes to other places. As long as he is not a heresy, we have trained a pastor for the kingdom of God. We have three or four pastors leaving our church, but they are still pastors elsewhere. I am willing to see their departure from the perspective of God.
I have seen too many cases where the pastor broke with his old shepherd, so I am more preventive. There are several reasons for the pastors to leave, such as the inappropriate relationship with the church, the robust control from the church, and theological differences and disagreement. To be free from control, some pastors want to be completely independent in economic management and not receive money from the church. But on the whole, the older generation pastor should teach the successors to establish the church and be prepared to see the trained pastors leave.
- Translated by Oliver Zuo
一位来自东南的70后代职事奉教会的曾伟成牧师（化名）就此话题向中国一网络基督教报纸基督时报分享了他的看见与分享。
基督时报：您如何看待中国教会亟需培养新一代接棒人的事情？
曾伟成牧师：我觉得新一代接棒人的培养是一个很重要的事情。因为我是属于改革开放以后被培养出来的传道人。我们发现了一个问题，那就是我们上一代的牧者大多数是一直做到去世，才把这个接棒才交给人。结果在交的时候就出现了教会巨大的裂痕。应该是早期的那代领袖们没有太多传承的观念导致的结果，教会的传承和发展反而被“为主忠心事奉到死”的观念所耽误了。
他们并没有把培养新一代接棒人放到很重要的位置，特别是在中国，在改革开放以后的新的一代领袖起来了，他们就比较有这种观念。举个例子，比如宋尚节博士，实际上他们的同工那一代能力很强，可是接下来的同工就没有那么强了，因为接棒人没有建立好，因为他们自己那一代人风格很强势，他自己的下一代和家乡教会那边的属灵的影响力就都漏掉了，都看不见了，问题出在传承上。
而当初接棒了这批50后的领袖，他们的考虑就会比以前的那批领袖会比较深远。新的一代起来的时候，就变成跟老的一代会有张力。因为他会觉得说你们这些神学观念是哪里来的？有一个不太好的说法——“让神学像神学就好了。”他们所谓的神学，就是我直接从那个圣经里领受就可以了。
我教会的牧师给自己定位说，他 65岁的时候要彻底的交棒。那我自己的定位，我60岁的时候有人来接我肯定交的。我觉得如果40出头的人来接这个是最好的。如果二十几岁大学毕业的人有接棒的决心，我就培养他，因为培养一个成熟的传道人，没有经过至少五到十年以上的时间是不行的。所以我们用十年为一层，有 40 岁的，有 50 岁的，有 60 岁的。我觉得这样的螺旋阶梯式的交替培养模式是最好的。实际上，我在接手的时候，我也给自己在定位了，就像摩西培养约书亚，也是经历了很多长的时间，把他带在身边，让他亲自看我怎么做。对我来讲我绝对是很愿意去培养的新人。
基督时报：您认为教会在培养接棒人的时候，应该带着什么标准去寻找和建立？
曾伟成牧师：预备和培养接棒人的标准，一个是要忠心，第二个要有受教的心，第三个要有谦卑的心。这是最基本的条件，当然忠心里面一般会带出他的殷勤来。之后便是要有受教的心，要有能够接受管教和建议的心，听不进去老牧者的建议是不行的。那另外一个是说他的谦卑很重要，不能觉得自己不需要再接受改变了，这个想法也很可怕的。我培养人的方式是用一个教练式的生活让他去看见。让他跟我住几天，看我是怎么生活的。实际上耶稣的做法跟保罗的做法就是我们的培养接棒人最好的示范。保罗是带他的学生提摩太也是一样。
基督时报：培养接棒人具体的操作模式和经验，您能分享一下吗？
曾伟成牧师：首先，我们上一代的老牧者要建立一个好的教会章程。比如，退下去的老传道要在生活上给后面的人的还是要做好预算和帮扶。这些老牧者需要制定好交接棒的制度和规则，如此可以避免可能出现下一代会出现各种问题。
我不认同新一代接棒人以空降的方式出现，也不能一下很快放手。老牧者需要逐渐的把新一代接棒人引到上面去。会众不太愿意接受空降一个新接棒人。那我们就是老的带小的，年轻的时候，就逐渐让他在台上的次数从少到多，自然而然的给它过渡过去。还有一种模式，就是长老治理团队，他们会对整个教会的治理起到引导作用。人数多的教会可以建立教会顾问委员会，它会起到定调，调整的方向的作用。牧者需要传递文化。
其实，教会如果做好传承，它会像细胞裂变一样，会裂变出好的东西出来。在这个疫情当中，特别这两年多，为什么有的教会是躺平的？有的教会反而做得更活跃的？因为活跃的教会已经在这方面已经做好了准备了。
我的感触是说，真正领袖的培养都是从最小方面培养的。就是说可能你培养的一个小组长，就是中国未来的领袖在这个小组长当中产生出来的。所以现在我们可以从一个普遍性的培养开始。就像现在我带领的团队里面就有15个小组，15个小组里面组长也有副组长，这里面就很多不同的人，其实我们在他的小组里面走动，就可以发现有这样的人才是比较特别的，懂得怎么去做怎么带领的。
实际上我们把这个架构做好的时候，让它复制下去，就像一个细胞裂变一样，把教会做小，才有机会培养更多新的牧者，就让更多的人有这样的机会在这个里面去得到了锻炼。实际上，从他们开始进入到教会里面去，已经要从三代同堂这方面去着手了。
基督时报：您如何看待教会传道人因经济供应、人际关系或神学观念不和而离开事奉岗位的现象？
曾伟成牧师：因为我是在教会里做代职事奉，同时做牧者，也有自己的工作。部队里面有两种军人，一种是还在部队里面的，还有一种是不在部队里面，那个叫预备役。在教会里面，我会竭尽所能的把合适的人放在合适的位置去培养。这个过程中，他们中也有离开的，是很正常。我带着一个心态，就是即便他离开了，他到别的地方去的时候，也可以成为一个传道人。只要他不进异端 ，我觉得我们还是为上帝的国度培养了一个人。我们有三四个传道人离开了我们的教会，但是他们到别的地方也是个传道人，我愿意站在一个国度的眼光之中去看他们的离开。
因为我看太多的教会，就像我的牧师讲过，传道人跟他的老牧者之间的分裂的情形太多了，所以我比较预防这种事情。传道的离开有几种：比如跟母会的关系出了问题，有的是觉得说母会的掌控太厉害了，导致传道人想要在经济管理要完全的独立，不要教会的钱，于是自己出去赚钱。另外就是神学上的分歧和不认同而离开。但总的来看，老一代牧者一方面要带着师傅的心去授之以渔，也要带着一定的胸怀做好所培养的人离开的准备。
话题•如何培养中国教会新一代接棒人?(七)|老一代牧者想法需更加开阔 制定完善的交接章程
Editor's note: It's the seventh article of a series of interviews under the topic: Cultivate a New Generation of Chinese Christian Leaders (see article one, article two, article three, article four, article five, and article six). A pastor named Zeng Weicheng (pseudonym), who was born in the 1970s in southeast China and serves in the church part-time, shared his views with the Christian Times, an online Christian newspaper in China.
Christian Times: What do you think of the urgent need for Chinese churches to train the new generation of pastors?
Pastor Zeng Weicheng: I think training the new generation of pastors is essential. As a preacher trained after China's reform and opening up policy, I found a problem that most of our previous generation of shepherds did not hand over to others until they died. As a result, there was a massive gap in the church during the handover. It should be the result of less consideration of inheritance among the leaders of the early generation, and the estate and development of the church were delayed by the concept of "serving the Lord faithfully until death."
They did not put the training of the new generation of pastors in a critical position, especially in China. After China's reform and opening up, a new generation of leaders rose and had such ideas. For example, Dr. John Sung had competent co-workers, but it was not the case for the later co-workers. This is because the successors were not well established and had a solid leading style, which skipped the spiritual influence of the next generation and the hometown churches. The problem lies in inheritance.
When the leaders born in the 1950s took the lead, they would consider more than the previous leaders. When the new generation leaders rise, they argue with the old generation leaders. Some would say about the latest theological ideas and insist on the lousy saying: "Let theology be like theology." Their so-called theology is to receive directly from the Bible.
The pastors of my church position themselves to hand over the work by the age of 65 altogether. It would be 60 if someone could pick up my work. I think the best candidate would be those in their early 40s. If a college graduate in his twenties is determined to take over, I will train him. As preparing a preacher would need at least five to ten years, we group them into candidates in their 40s, 50s, and 60s. I think this step-by-step culture mode is the best. I also promised to follow Moses in teaching his successor, Joshua. It would take a long time, and I would show my successor how I work. I am willing to train young people.
Christian Times: What criteria do you think the church should have in finding and establishing the successors?
Pastor Zeng Weicheng: The criteria for preparing and training the successors are loyalty, the willingness to be taught, and humility. These are the most basic conditions. We can usually find out his attitude when he is loyal. After that, he must be willing to be taught and accept discipline and advice. It is no way to ignore the direction of the old shepherds. The last one is humility. Humility is essential, and he cannot feel that he does not need to change anymore, which is terrible. The way I train successors is to coach them and let them see it by themselves. I would live with them for a few days and let them see how I live. Jesus and Paul's practice are the best examples of our successor's training, and so is Paul teaching to his successor Timothy.
Christian Times: Can you share the specific operation and experience of successor training?
Pastor Zeng Weicheng: Our old pastors should establish a good church constitution. For example, retired senior pastors should make a plan to help their successors. These old pastors need to formulate the handover system and rules to avoid possible problems in the next generation.
I disagree that the new generation of baton takers will appear by air, and they can't let go at once. The old shepherd must gradually lead the recent baton takers to the top. The congregation is reluctant to accept the parachuting of a new baton receiver. Then we are the old and the young. When we are young, we will gradually let him go on stage from less to more and naturally make a transition to it. There is another model, the Presbyterian governance team, which will play a guiding role in the governance of the whole church. Many churches can establish a church advisory Committee, which will set the tone and adjust the direction. Pastors need to pass on culture.
If the church has good inheritance, it will produce good things like cell division. During this pandemic in the past two years, why did some churches run in place while others were more active instead? Because the active churches have already been prepared in this regard.
I feel that the cultivation of authentic leaders is from minor aspects. The group leaders you are cultivating may be the future leader in China. So we can start with universal cultivation. I lead 15 groups now, each of which has a leader and a deputy leader. When we walk around groups of so many different people, we can find some are special and know how to lead.
When we built up this structure, it would copy itself like cell division to make the church smaller. This way, we will train more new pastors, who will have the opportunity to get practice. When they enter the church, we will have three generations of pastors.
Christian Times: What do you think of the church pastors leaving their ministries because of economic reasons, interpersonal relationships, or theological differences?
Pastor Zeng Weicheng: I am a part-time pastor in the church, and I also have a job. In the army, there are two kinds of soldiers, the army and reserve soldiers. I will try to put the right people in the right place for training in the church. In this process, some would leave, which is normal. Even if he leaves, I believe he can become a pastor when he goes to other places. As long as he is not a heresy, we have trained a pastor for the kingdom of God. We have three or four pastors leaving our church, but they are still pastors elsewhere. I am willing to see their departure from the perspective of God.
I have seen too many cases where the pastor broke with his old shepherd, so I am more preventive. There are several reasons for the pastors to leave, such as the inappropriate relationship with the church, the robust control from the church, and theological differences and disagreement. To be free from control, some pastors want to be completely independent in economic management and not receive money from the church. But on the whole, the older generation pastor should teach the successors to establish the church and be prepared to see the trained pastors leave.
- Translated by Oliver Zuo
Topic: Older Generation Pastors Should Formulate Better Handover System
