Editor's note: It's the second article of a series of interviews under the topic: Cultivate a New Generation of Chinese Christian Leaders (see article one). The Christian Times, an online Christian newspaper in China, interviewed a pastor in North China, and he talked about his opinion on the timing of cultivating a new generation of Christian leaders.
Pastor Wang became a follower of Jesus when he was in college in the 1980s. He was one of the first group of native believers who joined the church after the reform and opening up. Thereafter, he pastored churches in rural and urban areas for many years while engaging himself in charity and the workplace.
The Christian Times: What is your opinion on training a new generation of spiritual leaders for churches in China?
Pastor Wang: It's a pressing task for many churches in China.
These cases are not uncommon. When the first-generation leaders of many well-known missionary teams reached the age of 70 or 80, they suddenly realized that the development of successors had been overlooked in their decades-long services. They did not think about the development of their groups under the new leadership after they left the leading position. When they realized this issue in their old age, they found that it was too late to deal with it.
Chinese churches are facing a similar difficulty, and the history of Chinese churches and leaders' personalities could be the reason.
Many churches in China have been developed by a founder. This founding pastor is often regarded as the leader. I do not like the word "leader", but Chinese churches like it. This word has the opposite meaning to the pastor, which is God's servant according to the Bible. Bible teaches the older to serve the younger, and Jesus washes feet for disciples. While leaders are served by others. Moses did not proclaim himself as a leader even though he guided the Israelites. In historical documents, a person who was translated as a Jewish leader often carries negative connotations.
If a pastor makes himself a leader, he will place himself in a unique and irreplaceable position. Because of the credit and hard work of a pastor, followers usually give him much respect and praise. Consequently, the pastor tends to consider his existence irreplaceable. Deep in their hearts, some pastors even have the fear and anxiety of being replaced by new leadership.
I don’t think the word "leader" is in God’s dictionary. It has distorted and stigmatized the definition and position of church pastors.
Besides, one common feature of Chinese churches is the leader serves in all ministries. When the church has been developing successfully, the leader's radiance easily overshadows others. Given the pastor’s accomplishments, new leaders are difficult to be trained and grow.
Some leaders are just too confident and do not realize that they need to cultivate new leaders. I have seen pastors who do not think that they’ll get sick and have to leave their positions. They believe that they are in God’s care and will stay healthy and work till their 80s.
The Christian Times: What's the meaning of training new leaders for churches in China?
Pastor Wang: After the reform and opening up, the church has developed for 40 years. Pastors who began their ministries in their 20s at that time are in their 60s now. It is time for the Chinese churches to consider passing down the legacy to the new generation.
Leaders of Chinese churches after the reform and opening up have worked hard and sacrificed a lot. The church is their baby. Church founders with high authority may result in the void of successors. The pastors of the older generation should be future-oriented and have a long-term vision because they will retire someday. When the time comes, who can take over and keep up the good work? The preparatory work must be done sooner.
Churches need to train and raise leaders of a younger generation to carry on and grow the church. I heard that in churches in Western countries, pastors must retire when they reach a certain age according to the church policy. The pastors of several Chinese churches that I have been in touch with are all about 80 years old. They indicated, "I am pressing on." Of course, there is nothing wrong with that from a spiritual point of view. But as the church develops and reaches its next stage, the structure and needs of its congregation evolve as well. The church has to face the issue of how to keep it growing sustainably and robustly.
The Christian Times: You talked about the legacy and sustainable development of the church. What should be done in practice?
Pastor Wang: Firstly, churches need pastors, but they could not be in the role of a founder, an authority, or a great patriarch, but should be an example. More importantly, there must be more pastors to succeed him, pass on his legacy, and carry it forward.
Secondly, churches need to take good care of their younger pastors. Ministering a church in the 90s is quite different from today. The pressure of life was relatively low at that time. Nowadays, things have changed so much. The church needs to be aware of its responsibility to sustain the pastor’s living. The housing cost is generally high, and pastors’ children deserve a quality education in the city as well. Most pastors cannot meet these demands by themselves. The church has to step in and support. In short, the church has to recognize that it is imperative to provide well-rounded support for the pastor.
The Christian Times: You just brought up the issue of pastors’ salaries and everyday needs. In fact, this is a very serious problem for churches in many areas. Some churches encourage their pastors to work a second job or run a business. What is your take on this?
Pastor Wang: This is a practical question for a church. It is challenging for a pastor to sustain his family with low pay. Would the congregation think differently if the pay is high? Another practical issue is whether the young pastor’s wife supports his calling.
In the 90s, pastors’ wives were being supportive. Today, their wives undertake heavier family burdens than those did in the past. The living cost was low back then. If a husband gives up a high salary to serve a church, the burden of the family would be placed on the wife. Is the wife able to take over the financial responsibility? A church has to take all these issues into consideration.
The Christian Times: Part-time ministry is a new trend today. It is also popular among those in the workplace to serve as part-time ministers, and they are rarely paid by the church. Should people be encouraged to serve full-time or part-time?
Pastor Wang: The person in charge of the church needs to think about this question thoroughly since people have different gifts. Some may be suitable to be full-time ministers while others are part-time ministers. The key is to place people in positions where they can give full play to their strengths.
There is actually no correct answer. No correct answers to the questions Chinese churches are facing now. Once the environment changes, ways to do things need to change. We can't use the system from the West directly, because our legal system, social system, and economic environment are unique. People who have the same symptom will be given the same pill according to western medicine but different prescriptions according to Chinese medicine.
- Translated by June I. Chen
编者按：接续上次的话题，华北一牧师接受基督时报的采访，就“改革开放教会发展40年后 又到了再一次要考虑新老传承的时候了!”的话题展开了他的看见。
王牧师于1980年代在高校就读本科时信主，属于改革开放后的进入教会的第一批本土化的信徒。后在农村和城市教会牧养多年，同时从事慈善和职场工作。基督时报是中国一网络基督教报纸。
基督时报：您如何看中国教会在培养新一代属灵领袖这个事情？
王牧师：中国教会培养新一代接棒人其实是很多教会面临迫在眉捷的问题。
我听说过不少类似的案例，比如这个或那个很著名的宣教团队，第一代负责人到了70、80岁的时候突然发现在他长达几十年年的事奉教会的历程中，没有想过要培养接棒人。他没有想到自己离开的时候，整个团队如何在新一代的牧者带领下更好的发展。结果在他老了发现这个问题时，时间来不及了。
华人教会里面也有类似的现象，我认为出现这种现象是与中国教会的历史和个性都有关系的。
第一，因为不少中国教会基本上都是由一个开创者做大的。第一位这样的牧师常常被当作领袖，我是最不喜欢领袖这个词，但有时候我们华人教会特别喜欢这个词。领袖与圣经上牧师——神的仆人的这个定义是完全相反的。圣经上那是牧羊的仆人，大的服侍小的，耶稣给门徒洗脚，但领袖却是别人服侍他的。摩西也没敢说他是什么领袖，他虽然是带领以色列人的，但他也没说他是什么领袖。而在历史书籍中往往被翻译作犹太领袖的这个领袖往往是带有贬义色彩。
如果他做牧师的时候就把自己做成领袖，那这个领袖是不可替代的，是独一无二的。一位牧师因为功劳和苦劳的缘故，跟从者往往给予尊重和赞美过大，牧者很容易把自己当成一个不可替代的存在。甚至有的牧者内心深处会有怕被新人取代的恐惧和不安。
我认为这个词根本就不属神，就把教会牧者的这个定义和定位都已经给歪曲了甚至是污化了。
第二，也有的是因为牧者个性的原因，在华人的教会领域里，牧者领头羊事奉的一个特点就是在各个方面都要操心，教会做成功后，他的光芒就容易把其他人的亮点都给罩住了。新人很难在这么大的一个光芒下继续被培养和成长。再一个是他本人又没有意识到要去培养新一代的接棒人。
第三，教会起初创办者的权威性也导致了教会不去考虑过接棒人的事情，比如，我见过一种类型的牧师，他认为，自己不会遭遇万一生病导致离开岗位的情况。这位牧师的想法是觉得上帝一定会保佑我，我不会有病的，我一定会干到八十岁，身体会非常好。
基督时报:您觉得培养新一代的领导力对于中国教会的意义是什么呢？
王牧师：改革开放后，教会发展到今天大约有40年的时间了。那一代兴起服事的牧者们当时大约都是20多岁的样子，现在也有60多岁左右了。中国教会又到了要再一次考虑新老交替与传承的时候了
改革开放后第一批中国教会的牧者是很勤劳的，付出很多辛苦，是把教会当成自己的孩子一样。因此，教会起初创办者的权威性导致了教会不去考虑过接棒人的事情比比皆是。但老一代牧师应该要想到未来的某一天自己依然是要退场的，那个时候谁来接替你做的更好呢？这个预备的工作要尽快做才行。
教会的传承和可持续发展，首先得有新一代的牧者的培养和兴起。我听说在西方国家的教会里，牧师到了一定年龄要按照教会制度必须要退休。我接触过几位中国教会的牧者都八十岁左右了，他们说：‘我还继续干’，当然从属灵角度来讲没有说错。但随着教会发展到一个新的阶段，信徒结构也变化，信徒需求也在变化。教会就不得不面对如何让教会可持续性健康发展的课题。
基督时报：您谈到教会的传承和可持续发展的话题，你觉得这个在具体操作上应该要怎么做呢？
王牧师：首先得有牧者，但他不能光靠一位开创者、一位权威、一位大家长来罩住这个教会，他要起到一个榜样的作用。更重要的是还要有更多的牧者去继承他，把他的那个好的东西传承下来，然后发扬光大。
第二，现在还面临一个什么问题呢？我们当时90代时候做教会和现在做教会还是不太一样，因为当时做教会生活的压力是相对低的。但是现在完全不一样，教会需要有意识的照顾好牧者的生活。一个牧师他的孩子要上学的问题，他的家庭租房子的成本是很高的。孩子在城市里面上学也不容易，你也不能让自己的牧师想办法去找门路去请客去送礼解决孩子上学的问题吧。做牧师的人大部分也不是这种风格的人，教会得意识到这些然，后去帮助到牧师。总之，教会需要意识到要给牧师在城市里面生活的基本的一个薪资和体面的保障。
基督时报：你谈到薪资和牧者的需要的问题，其实这个问题对不少地区的教会来说很严重，所以一些教会是鼓励牧者去做带职或者经商。您怎么看这个问题呢？
王牧师：这对于一个教会来说也是面临着一个非常现实的问题。如果你给他的待遇低，他没有办法去养家糊口；工资过高的话那么信徒是不是有看法？还有年轻牧师的姊妹（妻子）是不是支持他家弟兄去做牧师，这都是现实问题。
过去90 年代，姊妹们还都是愿意支持。但是现在的姊妹面临家庭的负担要比 90 年代重得多。那个时候的成本低，一个有能力的男人，他放弃了一个高工资去做一个教会的事奉的工作，那么这个家庭的重担就要放在姊妹的身上。那么这个姊妹又有多大的能力去做？所以这些都是教会要统一要考虑的。
基督时报：现在有一个带职事奉是一个趋势，带职的几乎没有教会发的薪资。同时还有很多职场的人士做带职也是一种新的趋势，是鼓励人多做全职还是多做带职呢？
王牧师：教会的负责人对这些需要认真细化，因为每个人的恩赐都不一样。有的人可能他全职比较合适，有的人适合做带薪的服事，就可以让他多做一些发挥他特长的位置。
其实，没有一个标准答案的。中国教会现在的问题就是没有标准答案。因为中国的外在环境变得话，可能就模式需要变。你直接就从西方拿一套东西拿来用，环境变了，中国的环境不一样了。我们和西方相比，法律体系，社会制度，经济环境都不一样，这些都变了，你咋用？为什么说现在中医又火起来，因为西医是一片药给所有人，什么症状他是统一的给你开这粒药，和给别人都是一样的。中医同样一个病症，给不同人开的药都是不一样，它分量都不一样。
话题•如何培养中国教会新一代接棒人?(二)|改革开放后教会发展40年 又到了需要考虑新老传承的时候
Editor's note: It's the second article of a series of interviews under the topic: Cultivate a New Generation of Chinese Christian Leaders (see article one). The Christian Times, an online Christian newspaper in China, interviewed a pastor in North China, and he talked about his opinion on the timing of cultivating a new generation of Christian leaders.
Pastor Wang became a follower of Jesus when he was in college in the 1980s. He was one of the first group of native believers who joined the church after the reform and opening up. Thereafter, he pastored churches in rural and urban areas for many years while engaging himself in charity and the workplace.
The Christian Times: What is your opinion on training a new generation of spiritual leaders for churches in China?
Pastor Wang: It's a pressing task for many churches in China.
These cases are not uncommon. When the first-generation leaders of many well-known missionary teams reached the age of 70 or 80, they suddenly realized that the development of successors had been overlooked in their decades-long services. They did not think about the development of their groups under the new leadership after they left the leading position. When they realized this issue in their old age, they found that it was too late to deal with it.
Chinese churches are facing a similar difficulty, and the history of Chinese churches and leaders' personalities could be the reason.
Many churches in China have been developed by a founder. This founding pastor is often regarded as the leader. I do not like the word "leader", but Chinese churches like it. This word has the opposite meaning to the pastor, which is God's servant according to the Bible. Bible teaches the older to serve the younger, and Jesus washes feet for disciples. While leaders are served by others. Moses did not proclaim himself as a leader even though he guided the Israelites. In historical documents, a person who was translated as a Jewish leader often carries negative connotations.
If a pastor makes himself a leader, he will place himself in a unique and irreplaceable position. Because of the credit and hard work of a pastor, followers usually give him much respect and praise. Consequently, the pastor tends to consider his existence irreplaceable. Deep in their hearts, some pastors even have the fear and anxiety of being replaced by new leadership.
I don’t think the word "leader" is in God’s dictionary. It has distorted and stigmatized the definition and position of church pastors.
Besides, one common feature of Chinese churches is the leader serves in all ministries. When the church has been developing successfully, the leader's radiance easily overshadows others. Given the pastor’s accomplishments, new leaders are difficult to be trained and grow.
Some leaders are just too confident and do not realize that they need to cultivate new leaders. I have seen pastors who do not think that they’ll get sick and have to leave their positions. They believe that they are in God’s care and will stay healthy and work till their 80s.
The Christian Times: What's the meaning of training new leaders for churches in China?
Pastor Wang: After the reform and opening up, the church has developed for 40 years. Pastors who began their ministries in their 20s at that time are in their 60s now. It is time for the Chinese churches to consider passing down the legacy to the new generation.
Leaders of Chinese churches after the reform and opening up have worked hard and sacrificed a lot. The church is their baby. Church founders with high authority may result in the void of successors. The pastors of the older generation should be future-oriented and have a long-term vision because they will retire someday. When the time comes, who can take over and keep up the good work? The preparatory work must be done sooner.
Churches need to train and raise leaders of a younger generation to carry on and grow the church. I heard that in churches in Western countries, pastors must retire when they reach a certain age according to the church policy. The pastors of several Chinese churches that I have been in touch with are all about 80 years old. They indicated, "I am pressing on." Of course, there is nothing wrong with that from a spiritual point of view. But as the church develops and reaches its next stage, the structure and needs of its congregation evolve as well. The church has to face the issue of how to keep it growing sustainably and robustly.
The Christian Times: You talked about the legacy and sustainable development of the church. What should be done in practice?
Pastor Wang: Firstly, churches need pastors, but they could not be in the role of a founder, an authority, or a great patriarch, but should be an example. More importantly, there must be more pastors to succeed him, pass on his legacy, and carry it forward.
Secondly, churches need to take good care of their younger pastors. Ministering a church in the 90s is quite different from today. The pressure of life was relatively low at that time. Nowadays, things have changed so much. The church needs to be aware of its responsibility to sustain the pastor’s living. The housing cost is generally high, and pastors’ children deserve a quality education in the city as well. Most pastors cannot meet these demands by themselves. The church has to step in and support. In short, the church has to recognize that it is imperative to provide well-rounded support for the pastor.
The Christian Times: You just brought up the issue of pastors’ salaries and everyday needs. In fact, this is a very serious problem for churches in many areas. Some churches encourage their pastors to work a second job or run a business. What is your take on this?
Pastor Wang: This is a practical question for a church. It is challenging for a pastor to sustain his family with low pay. Would the congregation think differently if the pay is high? Another practical issue is whether the young pastor’s wife supports his calling.
In the 90s, pastors’ wives were being supportive. Today, their wives undertake heavier family burdens than those did in the past. The living cost was low back then. If a husband gives up a high salary to serve a church, the burden of the family would be placed on the wife. Is the wife able to take over the financial responsibility? A church has to take all these issues into consideration.
The Christian Times: Part-time ministry is a new trend today. It is also popular among those in the workplace to serve as part-time ministers, and they are rarely paid by the church. Should people be encouraged to serve full-time or part-time?
Pastor Wang: The person in charge of the church needs to think about this question thoroughly since people have different gifts. Some may be suitable to be full-time ministers while others are part-time ministers. The key is to place people in positions where they can give full play to their strengths.
There is actually no correct answer. No correct answers to the questions Chinese churches are facing now. Once the environment changes, ways to do things need to change. We can't use the system from the West directly, because our legal system, social system, and economic environment are unique. People who have the same symptom will be given the same pill according to western medicine but different prescriptions according to Chinese medicine.
- Translated by June I. Chen
Topic: It's Time to Cultivate New Generation of Chinese Christian Leaders
