Editor's note: It's the third article of a series of interviews under the topic: Cultivate a New Generation of Chinese Christian Leaders (see article one and article two). A pastor in North China shares that compared with the pastor's employment system in the West, apprenticeship may be more applicable to the Chinese church.
Pastor Wang believed in the Lord when he was an undergraduate in college in the 1980s. After that, he has worked in rural and urban churches for many years and has been engaged in charity and workplace work. He was interviewed by the Christian Times, an online Christian newspaper in China.
Christian Times: What key points do you think today’s church in China or the older generation of pastors should grasp when cultivating the next generation of pastors?
Pastor Wang: First of all, as the founders of the first churches, we need to share our experience and divine knowledge with these new pastors, and slowly train and select suitable potential pastors through discipleship training.
When I was young, when a dozen people were together, our pastor spent a week training us in a hotel. It was a luxury to stay in a hotel in the 1990s. Then, from morning till night: we read the Bible as the first priority after we got up, then prayed, ate, studied, and answered questions. Generally, it took one to two weeks to train for intensive courses.
When an old pastor cultivates the next generation, he must first contribute his feelings. The human soul is very sensitive. Whether you love him or not, everyone can understand whether you care or not. It is really important to teach him hand in hand. Now we can only say that it is called oral transmission. In the past, it was hand-in-hand teaching, but now I see very little of that.
Why is there so little hand-in-hand teaching? At present, there are too many things in the old pastor’s church to have time. Either I’ll give you some other books, read them for yourself, or I’ll deliver a lecture, and that’s it. I think we should become a family like teachers and students. Treat your partner as a family member, and he will regard this career as his own, not as employment.
Second, the material part that I emphasized before is that our church is now faced with how to appease the life of the younger generation of pastors. Caring for the family of the church pastor, including his wife, children’s schooling, and other aspects. If pastors struggle with these problems, they will easily drift away from their ministry and mission.
My old pastor, for example, retired at the age of 65. What did he do after he retired? He was reluctant to part with the staff in the church, so he was at the door to greet the visitors at the Sunday services. At the door, when the believers approached, he went to meet and greet them. He no longer gave sermons in the pulpit, and the senior pastor gave up his place to the younger ones.
Christian Times: Why do you particularly emphasize pastors’ inheritance and mentoring?
Pastor Wang: It takes time and energy to cultivate a person. At that time, the pastor of my church spent five years training me, in life, spirituality, caring, and loving.
It is absolutely necessary to get along with and spend time with the trainees. You need to be objective about whom you cultivate and the interpersonal relationship you establish.
For instance, if a church wants to train two or three young pastors, the kind of inheritance and intimate relationship between teachers and students will not occur without the personal investment and commitment of time.
Moreover, church pastors need to give the new generation of pastors the opportunity to try and allow mistakes, because you can’t help them do everything to prevent them from making mistakes. It is in the process of making mistakes that he will grow.
Christian Times: What are the criteria for selecting successors who seek God’s heart?
Pastor Wang: I don’t think there should be a myth about academic qualifications. Many preachers and pastors of the older generation actually had average academic qualifications, but their spirituality and talent supported the growth of the church.
I know that some people who are prepared by God have poor academic qualifications and are not theological students. However, he can do ministry well, because he is called by God.
In addition, his family background, financial income, spiritual life standards, etc. all need to be looked at, but the most fundamental thing is that the church has to pay. The church should ask itself: How much energy and money is the church prepared to devote to this pastor? The cost of living for the pastor and his family to live the city should be considered. Does the church have such a budget?
We can see examples of success. For instance, the churches in the West are mature, and it is good to retire and have someone younger assume the position. Then a perfect system is formed, which means everyone has a role. When a pastor attains a certain extent age, he will retire.
Back in China, the patriarchy of churches like China itself hinders the cultivation of successors. Looking at our Chinese enterprise in China, some pastors are still working in their seventies and eighties, and they don’t want to delegate their power. You can do things if you want, but you have to find your place. For example, my old pastor became a receptionist in the church after retirement.
Also, be willing to share. Jesus preached, telling all his own stories and all his secrets. Then as those from the older generation need to open their hearts and share the most precious things.
Christian Times: What do you think is the balance between institutionalization and mentoring?
Pastor Wang: Protestantism was introduced into China nearly 200 years ago, but it began to develop steadily after the 1980s. It’s still an immature church, which needs a firm foundation, and then a system can develop.
Why is the employment system implemented in the West? It’s because the Western church has already developed the mentoring system, which is comparable to the stage when Jesus Christ trained the disciples. However, China has not experienced it yet or is not mature yet.
The church system will take several generations to build, and after it is established, you can use this employment system. Maybe the mentoring system would be better for the Chinese church at present. However, the mentoring system is also a modern mentoring system, rather than the old one in which apprentices respected their mentors by pouring tea and washing their feet for them.
It’s like a very simple private enterprise. When a private enterprise starts a business, the group of entrepreneurs must have been family members, relatives and classmates, and then they start recruiting professional managers to a certain extent. The current stage of the church in China is still in its infancy. Just like an enterprise, the core group of people at this time must have a close relationship, comrades-in-arms or classmates, and then they work together for many years so that the foundation will be stable.
With a foundation, the system will only be developed at the beginning. When the church has developed to a certain scale, the recruitment system can be introduced. However, in my opinion, under the present situation, most churches in China are still weak in management and particularly internal management at the core, and the frequent transfer of staff has a great influence.
Over the past decade or so, many churches in China tried to copy some church systems, such as the electoral system, but most of them failed. I think it’s definitely inappropriate to completely copy foreign models. It has something to do with our cultural soil, our own environment, our receptivity, and the foundation of the faith in the church.
- Translated by Charlie Li
j继上次“改革开放教会发展40年后 又到了再一次要考虑新老传承的时候了!”的话题（加超链接），华北一牧师继续分享：比起西方聘用牧者制，师徒传承对中国教会可能更适用。
王牧师于1980年代在高校就读本科时信主，后在农村和城市教会牧养多年，同时从事慈善和职场工作。他接受中国一网络基督徒报纸基督时报的采访 基督时报：您认为今天的中国教会或者说老一代牧者在培养下一代牧者时要抓住哪些关键点呢？
王牧师：首先我们作为第一批的教会的创始者，需要把经验、属神的知识分享给这些新牧者，慢慢的通过门徒培训培养和挑选适当的潜在的牧者。
我年轻的时候，当时十来个人在一起，我们的牧师花出一个星期的时间把我们放在一个宾馆训练我们。当时 1990 年代住宾馆那是非常奢侈。然后从早到晚，大家集体早上几点起床读圣经，然后祷告，吃饭，学习，问答。训练一般一周到到半个月的集中式的学习。
老一代牧者培养下一代，首先要付出你的情感，人的灵魂是很敏感的，你爱不爱他，你付出没付出大家都是能体会到的，手把手的教的话，真心是重要的。我们现在只能说叫口传，口对口的传，过去是手把手教，但是现在这种我都看到很少。
为什么很少呢？现在老一批的牧师教会里事多，没时间。另外要么给你几本书，你自己看去吧，或者我就给你们上课，就完了。我认为我们还是要变成师徒一样，变成一个家里人。你把对方当成家里人，他把这个事业当成他自己的事业，而不是一个雇工。
第二，还是我之前强调的物质的部分，就是我们现在教会面临着如何来安抚好年轻一代牧者的生活。教会对牧者家庭的关心，包括她的妻子，包括孩子上学的问题等各方面。如果牧者为了这些问题经历挣扎，也就容易在事奉和使命上偏离。
曾经带我的老牧师，他到 65 岁退下来，他退下之后他干什么呢？他又舍不得教会的这些人，他就在那个门口做主日礼拜的迎宾。在门口，信徒来了，他去迎接这个弟兄姊妹。他也不再上圣坛讲道了，牧师把位置让给年轻的上来。
基督时报：您为何特别强调牧者要传承和师徒制？
王牧师：培养一个人是需要时间精力的。当时我的教会的牧师培养我的时候用了整整五年的时间，生活上、灵性上、关心爱护上。
相处和花时间是很需要的。你需要你所培养的对象和你产生人与人之间的关系。
比如说，一个教会要培养两三个年轻牧师，如果没有时间的投入和陪伴，是不会产生这种传承和师生的亲密关系的。
而且，教会牧者需要给新一代牧者试错的机会，不能帮助他做所有的事情以避免他犯错。只有在犯错的过程中，他才会成长。
基督时报：选出合上帝心意的接棒人的标准是什么？
王牧师：我觉得不能对学历有迷思，看之前老一代的传道人牧者很多其实学历一般，但是灵性和才能支撑了教会的成长。
我知道有些神预备好的人学历不太好，也不是神学生。但是他就是可以做好那个事奉，因有神的呼召。
另外他的家庭背景情况，经济收入的情况，灵性生命的标准等等都需要看，但最根本是教会要付出。教会要自问:教会准备拿出多大的精力和财力在这个牧者上？牧师和他的家庭在城市里生活的费用是要考虑的，那你的教会有没有这种预算？
我们可以看到成功的样板。比如，西方的教会已经成熟，在退休和接棒人这点上还是不错的。那么它已经形成了一个很完善的体制，这个体制意味着每个人有每个人的角色。牧师发展到一定程度，会退下来。
回到中国，中国这种教会的家长制本身就阻碍培养传承人的。你看咱们中国华人的企业，七八十岁的也有的还在做，不想放权。你想做事也可以，但是要找到自己的位置，比如我的老牧师是退休后在教会里面做接待。
而且要愿意分享。耶稣基督布道，是把他自己的所有东西都讲出去，把所有的秘密全部都告诉你。那么我们作为老一代的这个创始人，需要敞开你的心分享最宝贵的东西
基督时报：体制化和师徒制，您觉得怎么平衡呢？
答：基督新教传入中国，也近二百年，但是也就在 1980年代后开始比较稳定的发展了。现在仍旧是个不成熟的、需要一个打基础的阶段，之后你再形成一个体制。
聘用制在美国和在西方为什么实施呢？是因为西方的教会已经经历过师徒制的，经历过就像耶稣基督带门徒的这种阶段。但中国现在没有经历，或者还没有成熟。
教会的体系要经过几代人来建立，它建立起来以后了你再去实行这个聘用制是可以的。目前可能师徒制对于中国教会会更好一些。但师徒制也是要现代化的师徒制，而不是古老的那种徒弟尊敬师傅给师傅倒茶洗脚的那种。（==当summary）
就好像很简单的一个私人企业、民办企业创业的时候，这创业这批人一定是家属亲戚，同学，然后到了一定程度开始向外招聘职业经理人。中国教会这个阶段还在一个初步阶段。就像一个企业，这个时候核心的这批人一定是有一个亲密的关系，战友或者是同学，然后他们一起共事多少年，这样基础才会稳定。
有了基础，开始才会发展体系。教会完善发展到一定规模了，就可以实行招聘制了。但是我认为在目前这个情况下，基本上大部分中国的教会还是在管理体系、核心层次内部管理上比较薄弱，人员经常调动影响比较大。
过去十多年来，不少中国教会想复制过来的一些教会体制，比如选举制等等，他们大部分并没有成功。我想完全照搬国外肯定是不合适的。这个与我们的文化土壤、本身环境、我们的接受能力、教会的信仰基础根基都有关系。
话题•如何培养中国教会新一代接棒人?(三)|比起西方聘用牧者制，师徒传承对中国教会可能更适用
Editor's note: It's the third article of a series of interviews under the topic: Cultivate a New Generation of Chinese Christian Leaders (see article one and article two). A pastor in North China shares that compared with the pastor's employment system in the West, apprenticeship may be more applicable to the Chinese church.
Pastor Wang believed in the Lord when he was an undergraduate in college in the 1980s. After that, he has worked in rural and urban churches for many years and has been engaged in charity and workplace work. He was interviewed by the Christian Times, an online Christian newspaper in China.
Christian Times: What key points do you think today’s church in China or the older generation of pastors should grasp when cultivating the next generation of pastors?
Pastor Wang: First of all, as the founders of the first churches, we need to share our experience and divine knowledge with these new pastors, and slowly train and select suitable potential pastors through discipleship training.
When I was young, when a dozen people were together, our pastor spent a week training us in a hotel. It was a luxury to stay in a hotel in the 1990s. Then, from morning till night: we read the Bible as the first priority after we got up, then prayed, ate, studied, and answered questions. Generally, it took one to two weeks to train for intensive courses.
When an old pastor cultivates the next generation, he must first contribute his feelings. The human soul is very sensitive. Whether you love him or not, everyone can understand whether you care or not. It is really important to teach him hand in hand. Now we can only say that it is called oral transmission. In the past, it was hand-in-hand teaching, but now I see very little of that.
Why is there so little hand-in-hand teaching? At present, there are too many things in the old pastor’s church to have time. Either I’ll give you some other books, read them for yourself, or I’ll deliver a lecture, and that’s it. I think we should become a family like teachers and students. Treat your partner as a family member, and he will regard this career as his own, not as employment.
Second, the material part that I emphasized before is that our church is now faced with how to appease the life of the younger generation of pastors. Caring for the family of the church pastor, including his wife, children’s schooling, and other aspects. If pastors struggle with these problems, they will easily drift away from their ministry and mission.
My old pastor, for example, retired at the age of 65. What did he do after he retired? He was reluctant to part with the staff in the church, so he was at the door to greet the visitors at the Sunday services. At the door, when the believers approached, he went to meet and greet them. He no longer gave sermons in the pulpit, and the senior pastor gave up his place to the younger ones.
Christian Times: Why do you particularly emphasize pastors’ inheritance and mentoring?
Pastor Wang: It takes time and energy to cultivate a person. At that time, the pastor of my church spent five years training me, in life, spirituality, caring, and loving.
It is absolutely necessary to get along with and spend time with the trainees. You need to be objective about whom you cultivate and the interpersonal relationship you establish.
For instance, if a church wants to train two or three young pastors, the kind of inheritance and intimate relationship between teachers and students will not occur without the personal investment and commitment of time.
Moreover, church pastors need to give the new generation of pastors the opportunity to try and allow mistakes, because you can’t help them do everything to prevent them from making mistakes. It is in the process of making mistakes that he will grow.
Christian Times: What are the criteria for selecting successors who seek God’s heart?
Pastor Wang: I don’t think there should be a myth about academic qualifications. Many preachers and pastors of the older generation actually had average academic qualifications, but their spirituality and talent supported the growth of the church.
I know that some people who are prepared by God have poor academic qualifications and are not theological students. However, he can do ministry well, because he is called by God.
In addition, his family background, financial income, spiritual life standards, etc. all need to be looked at, but the most fundamental thing is that the church has to pay. The church should ask itself: How much energy and money is the church prepared to devote to this pastor? The cost of living for the pastor and his family to live the city should be considered. Does the church have such a budget?
We can see examples of success. For instance, the churches in the West are mature, and it is good to retire and have someone younger assume the position. Then a perfect system is formed, which means everyone has a role. When a pastor attains a certain extent age, he will retire.
Back in China, the patriarchy of churches like China itself hinders the cultivation of successors. Looking at our Chinese enterprise in China, some pastors are still working in their seventies and eighties, and they don’t want to delegate their power. You can do things if you want, but you have to find your place. For example, my old pastor became a receptionist in the church after retirement.
Also, be willing to share. Jesus preached, telling all his own stories and all his secrets. Then as those from the older generation need to open their hearts and share the most precious things.
Christian Times: What do you think is the balance between institutionalization and mentoring?
Pastor Wang: Protestantism was introduced into China nearly 200 years ago, but it began to develop steadily after the 1980s. It’s still an immature church, which needs a firm foundation, and then a system can develop.
Why is the employment system implemented in the West? It’s because the Western church has already developed the mentoring system, which is comparable to the stage when Jesus Christ trained the disciples. However, China has not experienced it yet or is not mature yet.
The church system will take several generations to build, and after it is established, you can use this employment system. Maybe the mentoring system would be better for the Chinese church at present. However, the mentoring system is also a modern mentoring system, rather than the old one in which apprentices respected their mentors by pouring tea and washing their feet for them.
It’s like a very simple private enterprise. When a private enterprise starts a business, the group of entrepreneurs must have been family members, relatives and classmates, and then they start recruiting professional managers to a certain extent. The current stage of the church in China is still in its infancy. Just like an enterprise, the core group of people at this time must have a close relationship, comrades-in-arms or classmates, and then they work together for many years so that the foundation will be stable.
With a foundation, the system will only be developed at the beginning. When the church has developed to a certain scale, the recruitment system can be introduced. However, in my opinion, under the present situation, most churches in China are still weak in management and particularly internal management at the core, and the frequent transfer of staff has a great influence.
Over the past decade or so, many churches in China tried to copy some church systems, such as the electoral system, but most of them failed. I think it’s definitely inappropriate to completely copy foreign models. It has something to do with our cultural soil, our own environment, our receptivity, and the foundation of the faith in the church.
- Translated by Charlie Li
Topic: Apprenticeship May Be Applicable to Chinese Church to Cultivate New Leaders
