Editor's note: It's the fourth article of a series of interviews under the topic: Cultivate a New Generation of Chinese Christian Leaders (see article one, article two, and article three). A pastor in South China emphasized the importance of praying and obeying God to select leadership in line with God's will.
A Chinese online Christian newspaper Christian Times interviewed Liang Sisheng (pseudonym for safety reasons), a post-70s pastor from southern China with rich pastoral experience.
Christian Times: What is your opinion of the church's efforts to raise a new generation of spiritual leaders or the successor of the church?
Pastor Liang Sisheng: That's a good question. The church needs to do this job over the long term according to the Bible. Paul exhorted Timothy to not only make disciples but also to take care of those who can learn and teach others in his exhortation to Timothy.
From the Old Testament to the present, the church has had difficulty raising successors even before Christ's return. Consequently, the church must do an excellent job of discipleship and check for the next generation of leaders the Lord is raising among us.
Christian Times: How important is it for the Chinese church to raise a new generation of leaders?
Pastor Liang Sisheng: If the church selects the right successor from the next generation, it will help the church's development. However, choosing the wrong person can be very harmful to the church. Therefore, the selection of the next generation of church leaders should not be taken lightly.
Christian Times: How can Chinese pastors become more open-minded about raising the next generation of successors? In practice, what should be done?
Pastor Liang Sisheng: The most important thing is the work of the Lord, who the Holy Spirit chooses, just as God chose and anointed David. When God asked Samuel to anoint David, Samuel found the wrong person at the beginning. By mistake, he thought one of David's brothers was David. But God reminded Samuel that humans look at the outward appearance, but God Himself looks at the heart, and He also reminded Samuel not to follow his own will in this matter, but to seek the will of God. From this perspective, as a pastor leads a church, he is not just looking at a person's talent, whether a person has leadership qualities, or how theologically literate he is. The most important thing is that the current leader needs to observe, pray, and seek the Lord's will. Let the Lord show me who the successor of my church should be, how I should do it, etc.
Christian Times: Which factors do you think must be considered when choosing a successor according to God's will? In your opinion, who is the most suitable successor in accordance with God's will?
Pastor Liang Sisheng: There are hidden dangers in the election system of some Conservative churches that focus on church constitutions. How long does it take for the church leader to be re-elected, for example? Despite its ability to reflect public opinion very well, it may not always reflect God's will.
Especially a church, assuming it has such regulations. Our church's charter, for instance, requires the congregation to vote. The congregation should be taught to pray frequently for this matter, which means seeking God's guidance rather than just our emotions and impressions as to what we like and dislike that determine the outcome.
When God first chose Saul to be the king of the people of Israel, Saul was not pleasing to God. At that time, the choice of King Saul was based on public opinion, and the suggestions from public opinion did not necessarily have the best results.
Christian Times: What is the best way to raise and select leaders? Is it necessary to update our current Chinese church models or concepts?
Pastor Liang Sisheng: There are some real cases I have seen. In traditional churches, some old pastors choose their successors, but they later found that the result was not what they expected. Presbyterian churches also value election processes. If there are strong pastors, there should be no problems since everyone will vote for them. If there are no strong pastors, the relationship between pastors and preachers will intensify every time there is an election.
Many Christians in the Chinese community can easily learn how to do it from all over the world. In fact, in many cases, the elected pastor can cause division within the church rather than benefit it. Therefore, praying for guidance and relying on the Holy Spirit to choose the next pastor is essential.
As an example, the apostle Peter proposed the standard of seven deacons in the book of Acts. The entire church must share this awareness, followed by prayer and seeking the Lord's guidance. The second is that everyone has an obedient heart.
Furthermore, large churches may have more pastors and co-workers, as well as many people on the co-workers' team. The successor must have the ability to promote church evangelism, manage, and for public relations. If this person is not good at interpersonal relationships, he will not be able to do well in a large church. It is, however, relatively easy to establish interpersonal relationships in small churches due to their size.
The process of raising candidates to be the successor is easier in small churches. Follow God's guidance during discipleship training. Who is God's chosen candidate? You still need to seek God's guidance. Despite Samuel's experience, God's choice of David surprised him completely.
Putting our own will above God's is the most common mistake we make.
- Translated by Richard Zou
继上次华北一牧师分享的话题：“比起西方聘用牧者制，师徒传承对我们可能更适用”之后，华南一牧师强调选出符合上帝心意的人需要祷告和顺服.
近日，一位来自华南的有着丰富牧会经验的70后梁思圣（化名）牧者，接受了一家中国网络基督教报纸基督时报的采访。
基督时报：您如何看教会在培养新一代属灵领袖，或者教会接棒人这个事情？
梁思圣（Pastor Liang)：你说的是一个很好的问题。按照圣经来讲，这是教会需要长期去做的工作。保罗对提摩太的劝勉中，保罗不单是让提摩太来做门徒，而且让提摩太留心那些能够领受教导而且能教导别人的人。
从旧约时代一直到现在，再到基督再来之前，每代教会都有生产之苦。因而，教会是需要一方面是做好门徒培训，一方面就留心主在我们当中兴起的下一代的接棒人。
基督时报：您觉得培养新一代的领导力或者说新一代的教会接棒人对于中国教会的意义是什么呢？
Pastor Liang：教会在新一代接棒人的事上选对了，会对教会的发展有极大的帮助。但是把人选择错了，就会对教会产生极大的危害。因此，选择下一代的教会接班人的事情，它不是可有可无的事情，是必须严肃思考的事情。
基督时报：您觉得中国教会牧者在培养新一代接棒人的事情上怎样在观念上变得更加开阔？具体操作上应该要怎么做呢？
Pastor Liang: 我认为，这个事情它最重要部分还是主的工作，也就是圣灵愿意选拔谁的问题。就像上帝拣选并膏抹大卫。上帝让撒母耳去膏抹的时候，他一开始是看错人，他以为是大卫的哥哥们。但是上帝提醒他说，你们是看外貌，但耶和华是看内心。所以他就不能在这个事情上面随着自己的意思，而是一定要去寻求主的意思。
从这个角度来讲，作为正在领导教会的牧者，他不是仅仅去观察一个人的才干或者是一个人有没有领袖气质，或者说他的神学素养如何。其实最要紧的还是现任的领袖需要去观察，需要去祷告，需要去寻求主的旨意。让主指明我的教会的接班人是谁，我应该如何做等等。
基督时报：对于如何选出合上帝心意的接棒人，您觉得要考虑到那些必要的因素呢？您觉得什么样的人是合神心意的接棒人呢？
Pastor Liang: 对一些建制派且注重教会章程的教会，我觉得他们的选举制度是有隐忧的。比如，多长时间后，教会就要改选一次之类的。虽然它可以很好的反映民意，但有的时候在反映上帝的心意这方面，可能有时候会出问题。
特别是一个教会，假设这个教会是有这样的规章。比如说我们的教会的章程是选举制的，要会众投票的。那么在这方面其实就要教导会众为此事常常祷告，就是整体都要祷告寻求上帝的带领，而不仅仅是我们在情感上、印象上的好恶来决定结果的。
起初上帝选择扫罗做以色利百姓的王的时候，扫罗并不是上帝所喜悦的。当时选择扫罗王是出于民意，民意出来的建议不一定是最好的结果。
基督时报：您觉得一个健康的培养并选择接棒人的模式应该是怎样的呢？我们
当下中国教会哪些观念或者模式需要更新呢？
Pastor Liang: 我见过一些真实的案例，比如有的传统的教会的老牧者选择了接班人，但是后面发现效果未必好。也有比如重视选举流程的长老教的教会，如果有比较强的牧者，大家都会选，一般不会出现问题。但是如果没有比较强的牧者，每次选举的时候，牧师、传道人之间的关系会非常紧张。
那对中国人来讲，很多基督徒容易借鉴世上的方法来做。选出来的人，并不是对教会有益处的，反而就带来教会的分裂。所以，教会在选择下一任接班人的时，需要祷告和圣灵的工作。
如果拿使徒行传中选出7位执事作为案例的话，使徒彼得他提出了七位执事的标准。第一是在整个教会当中都需要有这个意识，然后要为此而祷告，寻求主的带领。第二就是，大家都带有一个顺服的心。
另外，大型教会可能牧者同工比较多，它牵扯到的同工团队的人很多。要有对教会传道推动能力、管理的能力和公关的能力等。如果这个人不善于做人际关系，人际关系相对弱一些的话，在大型教会是做不好的。但小型教会因为它相对小，其实它讲人际关系比较简单。
对小型教会来讲，比较容易，带着一些人去培养。一边做门徒训练，一边去观察，然后看主的带领。因为你还是要观察上帝的心意——上帝选立了谁。因为就像撒母耳这么有经验的人，上帝选大卫这件事情是完全超出撒母耳的经验。
我们最容易犯的错误其实是凭己意越过上帝的旨意。
话题•如何培养中国教会新一代接棒人?(四)|选出符合上帝心意 的人需要祷告和顺服
Editor's note: It's the fourth article of a series of interviews under the topic: Cultivate a New Generation of Chinese Christian Leaders (see article one, article two, and article three). A pastor in South China emphasized the importance of praying and obeying God to select leadership in line with God's will.
A Chinese online Christian newspaper Christian Times interviewed Liang Sisheng (pseudonym for safety reasons), a post-70s pastor from southern China with rich pastoral experience.
Christian Times: What is your opinion of the church's efforts to raise a new generation of spiritual leaders or the successor of the church?
Pastor Liang Sisheng: That's a good question. The church needs to do this job over the long term according to the Bible. Paul exhorted Timothy to not only make disciples but also to take care of those who can learn and teach others in his exhortation to Timothy.
From the Old Testament to the present, the church has had difficulty raising successors even before Christ's return. Consequently, the church must do an excellent job of discipleship and check for the next generation of leaders the Lord is raising among us.
Christian Times: How important is it for the Chinese church to raise a new generation of leaders?
Pastor Liang Sisheng: If the church selects the right successor from the next generation, it will help the church's development. However, choosing the wrong person can be very harmful to the church. Therefore, the selection of the next generation of church leaders should not be taken lightly.
Christian Times: How can Chinese pastors become more open-minded about raising the next generation of successors? In practice, what should be done?
Pastor Liang Sisheng: The most important thing is the work of the Lord, who the Holy Spirit chooses, just as God chose and anointed David. When God asked Samuel to anoint David, Samuel found the wrong person at the beginning. By mistake, he thought one of David's brothers was David. But God reminded Samuel that humans look at the outward appearance, but God Himself looks at the heart, and He also reminded Samuel not to follow his own will in this matter, but to seek the will of God. From this perspective, as a pastor leads a church, he is not just looking at a person's talent, whether a person has leadership qualities, or how theologically literate he is. The most important thing is that the current leader needs to observe, pray, and seek the Lord's will. Let the Lord show me who the successor of my church should be, how I should do it, etc.
Christian Times: Which factors do you think must be considered when choosing a successor according to God's will? In your opinion, who is the most suitable successor in accordance with God's will?
Pastor Liang Sisheng: There are hidden dangers in the election system of some Conservative churches that focus on church constitutions. How long does it take for the church leader to be re-elected, for example? Despite its ability to reflect public opinion very well, it may not always reflect God's will.
Especially a church, assuming it has such regulations. Our church's charter, for instance, requires the congregation to vote. The congregation should be taught to pray frequently for this matter, which means seeking God's guidance rather than just our emotions and impressions as to what we like and dislike that determine the outcome.
When God first chose Saul to be the king of the people of Israel, Saul was not pleasing to God. At that time, the choice of King Saul was based on public opinion, and the suggestions from public opinion did not necessarily have the best results.
Christian Times: What is the best way to raise and select leaders? Is it necessary to update our current Chinese church models or concepts?
Pastor Liang Sisheng: There are some real cases I have seen. In traditional churches, some old pastors choose their successors, but they later found that the result was not what they expected. Presbyterian churches also value election processes. If there are strong pastors, there should be no problems since everyone will vote for them. If there are no strong pastors, the relationship between pastors and preachers will intensify every time there is an election.
Many Christians in the Chinese community can easily learn how to do it from all over the world. In fact, in many cases, the elected pastor can cause division within the church rather than benefit it. Therefore, praying for guidance and relying on the Holy Spirit to choose the next pastor is essential.
As an example, the apostle Peter proposed the standard of seven deacons in the book of Acts. The entire church must share this awareness, followed by prayer and seeking the Lord's guidance. The second is that everyone has an obedient heart.
Furthermore, large churches may have more pastors and co-workers, as well as many people on the co-workers' team. The successor must have the ability to promote church evangelism, manage, and for public relations. If this person is not good at interpersonal relationships, he will not be able to do well in a large church. It is, however, relatively easy to establish interpersonal relationships in small churches due to their size.
The process of raising candidates to be the successor is easier in small churches. Follow God's guidance during discipleship training. Who is God's chosen candidate? You still need to seek God's guidance. Despite Samuel's experience, God's choice of David surprised him completely.
Putting our own will above God's is the most common mistake we make.
- Translated by Richard Zou
Topic: It Takes Prayer, Obedience to Select Church Leadership
