Brother L, in his mid-20s, is currently studying at a seminary and serving in a church on weekends and on holidays. In spite of his young age, he is very experienced, having served in churches for almost ten years.
On weekdays, the Generation Z pastor likes to post his thoughts on social media and often exchanges thoughts and ideas with fellow believers in his online community.
Recently, Gospel Times, a Chinese Christian online newspaper, had an interview with Brother L who shared his experience of growth and thoughts on serving God, which is a true reflection of himself.
Gospel Times: Pastors generally don't voice themselves very much and rarely express directly even when they are hurt. What do you think of this phenomenon?
Brother L: I think, first of all, it has something to do with a person's character. Some people are as extroverted as I am and others are introverted and don't like to express themselves very much. Either way, I think what people need most is to be respected, and everyone wants to be accepted.
I may have been influenced by the word "truth" when Jesus says, "I tell you the truth", in that I feel pastors should do what they say and say what they do. The truth is authoritative. However, the good or not so good behaviors of pastors also influence their congregations’ recognition of the authority of Biblical truth. After all, many people now don’t listen to what you say but rather look at what you live out or what you do.
Why are most pastors reluctant to voice or express themselves? That is because many people will measure God's servants by God's righteousness, but they fail to realize that pastors are also human beings rather than immortals. They, too, should be treated with God's love.
Rabindranath Tagore was once asked three questions: First, what is the easiest in the world? Second, what is the most difficult in the world? Third, what is the greatest in the world? Tagore replied: Blame others is the easiest, know yourself the hardest, and love the greatest.
In love, brothers and sisters can remind their pastors of their inappropriate acts, but can’t completely deny the whole person. Many times we only criticize others, but rarely encourage or affirm them. If a child does not do well in school, many parents will blame the child or compare him or her with other children. I think it is especially important to give pastors room and time to grow, especially young pastors. Don't let them become anxious the moment they start their ministry in a church. That’s why I think many pastors cannot be themselves because they have been picked on for a long time. This results in an inferiority complex, so much so that they need to hide their true selves. I think for us young pastors, correcting our mistakes needs to be pointed but not point at our dignity.
Are many pastors pretentious? Because some feel that if they are not, they believe they will cause people to stumble. If not, they fell they cannot stay on in the church. So they have to pretend that they are good people. In fact, such pastors are very anxious about this. Many pastors are depressed. They also feel helpless serving under this pressure. In other words, before the brothers and sisters, they appear good and very spiritual. In fact, their inner beings are hurting.
Gospel Times: So how do you make the congregation realize that they should accept the pastor's true self?
Brother L: First of all, a good pastor brings people into God’s presence and brings them to worship God, not the pastor. Pastors must be aware of that.
Christians need to be aware that when they gather to worship God, they don’t come to see a certain pastor or team leader. They need to make sure that their teachings are in line with the Bible. When you focus on Jesus Christ, you won't fall because of people.
Gospel Times: What if a pastor has had many burdens and even a tendency to be depressed?
Brother L: There should be a team that cares for pastors. It’s not only the congregation that needs to be taken care of but also pastors. I hope to see in my lifetime the Chinese Church having teams of caring pastors, granting pastors times of sabbatical leave, and also having retreat centers where pastors can rest and be comforted. All that I can do myself for now is to let things settle.
Regarding the current church situation, I tell you what I truly think: a pastor's wife should see her job as a counsellor to her husband. When I was a teenager I learned that the pastor of my Bible study group worked hard to serve us but received no understanding from his wife. That made the pastor as good as being dead. So, I think the more important is to have the support of the people who are closer to you. The scolding by brothers and sisters may not matter. However, if the people who are closest to you speak to you in a destructive way, that hurt is really terrible. A person's dedication to serving God really needs the support and understanding of the family.
In addition, Paul made a good comment, "Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ." (Galatians 1:10) Since we want to truthfully live before God, we must also live truthfully before men. I think being sophisticated yet hypocritical is not as good as being simple yet truthful because whatever is hidden will be unveiled.
From this point of view, I don't like the kind of pastor who flys everywhere in order to provide spirituality workshops here and there but never commits themself to anything specific. They serve with gifts which is rather simple for them to carry out and the enumeration is rather high. But by being down-to-earth in serving in a church, in a year or two their shortcomings will be more or less exposed, and then they will need to humble themselves to grow together with the brothers and sisters. So, the personal spirituality of pastors is very important.
Gospel Times: When it comes to personal spirituality, how do you maintain yours while you serve?
Brother L: I am really repented to the Lord. Many times I am alive outwardly but rather dead inside. I appear to love the Lord. But in fact, my personal relationship with the Lord is distant. In fact, pastors are a group who will repent most severely.
My spirituality is simple and involves three steps. The first step is about seeing what the Bible says, or what it says to people of at that time. Step two is about what the Bible says to me. And step three is about how I live it out with the Lord's help.
Perseverance in meditation is what I seek. I think spiritual growth is like the letter "W". Everyone would be like that. When they are zealous they are like boiling water and when they are cold they go down to zero. I want to remind myself of two words, "repeatedly trying and yet repeatedly defeated, yet repeatedly defeated but repeatedly trying." Weakness is also a good thing. Just admit your weakness and rely on God's power.
I think spiritual partners are necessary. Pastors need pastoral care as well and I still think that the best pastor for a pastor is their spouse, their families, or their spiritual parents. Be sure to receive the guidance from your elders.
Gospel Times: What are your personal hurts in serving?
Brother L: To be honest, I have complaints. I even think I’d rather die than serve. I think the church is not as good as society. There is no love at all in the church, the place where love is most talked about. That is my evaluation of the church. This is the very time when I need to rely on the Lord to know that I am serving Him. That is why there must be a calling upon the individual. No calling, no real continuing.
There was a time when I did not have a penny or even have a glass of water given to me while I was preaching. I complained. Back home my mother said, "why won’t you bring a cup of tea with you?" But what I want to say is that God is righteous and loving. Now when I go out to serve, I get paid and am even given tea. In the words of Hudson Taylor, "There is no shortage of God's supply to do God's work in God's way." That's the lesson of faith.
To put it another way, I think having been hurt can be a treasure. There is no shortage of people who can talk these days, but there is a serious shortage of people who can teach the true way and tell the truth. I would also like to be a bridge so as not to allow the next generation to also be hurt. I have suffered and don't want the next generation to suffer the same. This is my idea and my burden. It seems to me that suffering for the Lord and being abused by the church are two different matters.
In addition, I think the motivation and attitude of serving determine how you look at the hurts. In other words, if you have no hurts, it is very likely that people are pleasing you. This is definitely not serving the Lord because the path of the cross is inherently not easy. Jesus said, "If the world hates you, you know, it hates me first before you."
Truthfully speaking, I find the persecution from outside the church bearable, but it is hard for me to accept the strife within the church. Since the apostolic age, there have been problems and we are all sinners. No church system is perfect and only the elder system is somewhat better. There are problems everywhere. So, here on earth you and I can only find a church that is somewhat closer to the Bible's standard, and our ultimate hope lies in our future heavenly home.
- Translated by Charlie Li
对话95后传道人：在服侍中做真实的自己 95后的L弟兄目前在神学院就读，也会利用周末及假期时间到教会服侍。虽然年纪尚轻，L弟兄却是“久经沙场”，已有将近十年的服侍经历。 平日里，L弟兄喜欢在社交网络平台记录自己的所思所感，亦常在群里与弟兄姐妹互动。 近日，L弟兄分享了他在服侍中的成长与思考，他的真实流露其间。 福音时报：传道人一般不太表露自己的心声，即便受伤了也很少直接说。你怎么看待这种情况？ L弟兄：我觉得，首先这跟每个人的性格有关系。有的人像我这样外向，有的人则内向不太爱表达，但不管是哪种，我觉得人最需要的是被尊重，每个人都渴望被接纳。 我可能被主耶稣经常说的“我实实在在地告诉你们”中的“实实在在”影响了，我觉得传道人要尽可能讲自己所行，行自己所讲。真理是权威的，但是传道人的行为也决定了是否把圣经真理权威打折扣，毕竟现在很多人不看你说了什么，而是看你活出来什么，或者说，看你做了什么。 为什么绝大多数的传道人不愿意展示自己，或者说表达自己？那是因为，许多人会用神的公义要求上帝的仆人，却不曾想到传道人也是人而不是神仙，也应该要多用神的慈爱去对待。 有人问泰戈尔三个问题：第一，世界上什么最容易？第二，世界上什么最难？第三，世界上什么最伟大？泰戈尔回答：指责别人最容易，认识自己最难，爱最伟大。 弟兄姊妹可以爱心提醒，但是不要完全否定他整个人。我们很多时候会完全否定别人，却很少鼓励肯定。从小做不好，很多父母的教育就是说你怎么这么差或者就是拿自己家孩子跟其他孩子比。我觉得要对事不对人，给予传道人成长空间，尤其是给予年轻传道人时间。一定不要让他们一进教会服侍就感到害怕。所以，我觉得很多传道人不能做自己是因为被挑三拣四久了，导致自卑而不得不伪装自己。我想，我们年轻传道人需要被指点，但不需要被指指点点。 很多传道人比较假？因为，有的传道人觉得他不假就会让人跌倒，或者说不假就混不下去了，所以不得不装得自己很好。其实这样子传道人很苦恼，很多传道人有忧郁症，他们也很无奈，是带着压力、烦恼去服侍。换句话说，在弟兄姐妹面前很好，很属灵，其实心里面很受伤，很不健康。 福音时报：那怎么使会众意识到要去接纳传道人真实的样子呢？ L弟兄：首先，好的传道人是把人带到上帝的面前，或者说一同来敬拜上帝，而不是带到他自己的面前。传道人一定要有这样的意识。 基督徒则要有这样的意识：听道不是听谁讲，敬拜也不是听谁带，而是说听他讲的或带的是否符合《圣经》。定睛在耶稣基督的身上，就不会因人跌倒了。 福音时报：如果一个传道人心里已经积压了很多重担，甚至有抑郁倾向，该怎么处理呢？ L弟兄：教会需要有关怀牧者团队。不只是弟兄姊妹需要被牧养，牧者也需要被关怀牧养，我希望有生之年看到国内教会有关怀牧者团队，有安息年，有很多退修会等，让牧者也可以身心灵得安息。现在，我能做的就是积累沉淀自己。 按照目前教会现象，我说句心里话吧，我觉得师母就是传道人的牧师，或者说师母是牧师的牧师。我十几岁读圣经培训班的时候，了解到有牧师辛苦服侍回家，还得不到妻子的体谅，这样的话连想死的心都有了。所以我觉得越亲近的人的支持越重要，可能弟兄姐妹骂你说你还无关紧要，但是自己最亲近的人要是说了一些话，可能就会很受伤。一个人的摆上，真的是需要家里人的支持和理解。 另外，保罗说了一句话很好，“我现在是要得人的心呢？还是要得神的心呢？我岂是讨人的喜欢吗？若仍旧讨人的喜欢，我就不是基督的仆人了。”（加1:10）我们既然要真真实实地活在神的面前，也要真真实实地活在人的面前。我是这么认为的，虚伪的成熟，还不如真实的幼稚来得好，因为纸是包不住火的。 从这个角度说，我不怎么喜欢那种到处飞的传道人，就是到处开培灵会，却没有委身教会的传道人。他们是凭着恩赐服侍，是很简单的，而且收入也很高。但是一个传道人要踏踏实实地委身在一个教会，一两年的时间他的缺点就会多多少少暴露出来，那么他就要带着一颗谦卑的心，与弟兄姐妹们一同来成长。所以传道人的灵修就很重要了。 福音时报：谈到灵修，你在服侍当中，是如何持守个人灵修的？ L弟兄：我其实蛮亏欠的，很多时候外面是活的，里面却是死的。外面让人看起来你很爱主，很好，但是里面与主的关系却很遥远。其实传道人是最难悔改的一群人。 我的灵修很简单，我会用三步走：第一步，圣经说的是什么，或者说圣经对当时的人说的是什么；第二步，圣经对我说的是什么；第三步，我要如何靠主去活出来。 持之以恒的灵修是我很追求的。我觉得灵命成长就像“W”一样，每一个人都会这样吧，火热起来能到沸点100 ℃，冷淡下去就零下。我想送两个词语给我自己，“屡战屡败，屡败屡战”。软弱也是好事，承认自己的软弱，依靠上帝的大能，什么时候软弱。 我觉得属灵同伴很有必要，牧者也需要牧者。从这个角度看，我还是觉得牧者最好的牧者是自己的妻子、家庭，或者属灵父母。一定要有长辈的指导。 福音时报：你个人在服侍中有哪些受伤的经历？ L弟兄：我要坦白讲，我有抱怨，甚至觉得打死我也不想服侍，甚至觉得教会还没有社会好。最讲爱的地方却是没有爱的地方，这是我对教会的评价。这个时候就是要靠主啊，要知道我是为主而做。这也是为什么一定要有呼召。没有呼召，真的是走不下去。 那时候服侍没有一分钱，讲道没有一杯水给我，我就埋怨啊，回到家我妈还说“你自己不会带茶水啊”。但是我想说的是，上帝是公义的，也是慈爱的，我现在外出讲道，有的地方给我红包，或者是茶水。用戴德生的话说，“按上帝的方法做上帝的工作，绝不会缺乏上帝的供应。”这就是信心的功课。 换一个角度说，我觉得受伤是一笔财富。这时代不缺乏会讲的人，但缺乏讲真道讲真话的人。我也愿意成为垫脚石，不希望下一代再伤了。自己苦过，不应该让下一代受同样的苦。这是我的想法，也是我的负担。因为在我看来为主吃苦和被教会虐待是两码事。 另外，我认为服侍的动机和态度决定了你怎样看待受伤这件事。换句话说，如果服侍没有受伤，都是别人捧着你的，我想这个服侍肯定不是为主服侍。因为十字架的道路本来就是坎坷的，耶稣说“世人若恨你们，你们知道，恨你们以先已经恨我了”。 说句心里话，外面的逼迫我还觉得可以理解，但是我很难接受教会内的有些纷争。从使徒教会开始，历世历代有人的地方就有问题，都是罪人嘛。教会制度也没有完美的，只能说长老制更好一点。有人的地方都有问题，所以，在地上你我只能找更接近圣经的教会，我们的盼望是在于以后的天国天家。
Brother L, in his mid-20s, is currently studying at a seminary and serving in a church on weekends and on holidays. In spite of his young age, he is very experienced, having served in churches for almost ten years.
On weekdays, the Generation Z pastor likes to post his thoughts on social media and often exchanges thoughts and ideas with fellow believers in his online community.
Recently, Gospel Times, a Chinese Christian online newspaper, had an interview with Brother L who shared his experience of growth and thoughts on serving God, which is a true reflection of himself.
Gospel Times: Pastors generally don't voice themselves very much and rarely express directly even when they are hurt. What do you think of this phenomenon?
Brother L: I think, first of all, it has something to do with a person's character. Some people are as extroverted as I am and others are introverted and don't like to express themselves very much. Either way, I think what people need most is to be respected, and everyone wants to be accepted.
I may have been influenced by the word "truth" when Jesus says, "I tell you the truth", in that I feel pastors should do what they say and say what they do. The truth is authoritative. However, the good or not so good behaviors of pastors also influence their congregations’ recognition of the authority of Biblical truth. After all, many people now don’t listen to what you say but rather look at what you live out or what you do.
Why are most pastors reluctant to voice or express themselves? That is because many people will measure God's servants by God's righteousness, but they fail to realize that pastors are also human beings rather than immortals. They, too, should be treated with God's love.
Rabindranath Tagore was once asked three questions: First, what is the easiest in the world? Second, what is the most difficult in the world? Third, what is the greatest in the world? Tagore replied: Blame others is the easiest, know yourself the hardest, and love the greatest.
In love, brothers and sisters can remind their pastors of their inappropriate acts, but can’t completely deny the whole person. Many times we only criticize others, but rarely encourage or affirm them. If a child does not do well in school, many parents will blame the child or compare him or her with other children. I think it is especially important to give pastors room and time to grow, especially young pastors. Don't let them become anxious the moment they start their ministry in a church. That’s why I think many pastors cannot be themselves because they have been picked on for a long time. This results in an inferiority complex, so much so that they need to hide their true selves. I think for us young pastors, correcting our mistakes needs to be pointed but not point at our dignity.
Are many pastors pretentious? Because some feel that if they are not, they believe they will cause people to stumble. If not, they fell they cannot stay on in the church. So they have to pretend that they are good people. In fact, such pastors are very anxious about this. Many pastors are depressed. They also feel helpless serving under this pressure. In other words, before the brothers and sisters, they appear good and very spiritual. In fact, their inner beings are hurting.
Gospel Times: So how do you make the congregation realize that they should accept the pastor's true self?
Brother L: First of all, a good pastor brings people into God’s presence and brings them to worship God, not the pastor. Pastors must be aware of that.
Christians need to be aware that when they gather to worship God, they don’t come to see a certain pastor or team leader. They need to make sure that their teachings are in line with the Bible. When you focus on Jesus Christ, you won't fall because of people.
Gospel Times: What if a pastor has had many burdens and even a tendency to be depressed?
Brother L: There should be a team that cares for pastors. It’s not only the congregation that needs to be taken care of but also pastors. I hope to see in my lifetime the Chinese Church having teams of caring pastors, granting pastors times of sabbatical leave, and also having retreat centers where pastors can rest and be comforted. All that I can do myself for now is to let things settle.
Regarding the current church situation, I tell you what I truly think: a pastor's wife should see her job as a counsellor to her husband. When I was a teenager I learned that the pastor of my Bible study group worked hard to serve us but received no understanding from his wife. That made the pastor as good as being dead. So, I think the more important is to have the support of the people who are closer to you. The scolding by brothers and sisters may not matter. However, if the people who are closest to you speak to you in a destructive way, that hurt is really terrible. A person's dedication to serving God really needs the support and understanding of the family.
In addition, Paul made a good comment, "Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ." (Galatians 1:10) Since we want to truthfully live before God, we must also live truthfully before men. I think being sophisticated yet hypocritical is not as good as being simple yet truthful because whatever is hidden will be unveiled.
From this point of view, I don't like the kind of pastor who flys everywhere in order to provide spirituality workshops here and there but never commits themself to anything specific. They serve with gifts which is rather simple for them to carry out and the enumeration is rather high. But by being down-to-earth in serving in a church, in a year or two their shortcomings will be more or less exposed, and then they will need to humble themselves to grow together with the brothers and sisters. So, the personal spirituality of pastors is very important.
Gospel Times: When it comes to personal spirituality, how do you maintain yours while you serve?
Brother L: I am really repented to the Lord. Many times I am alive outwardly but rather dead inside. I appear to love the Lord. But in fact, my personal relationship with the Lord is distant. In fact, pastors are a group who will repent most severely.
My spirituality is simple and involves three steps. The first step is about seeing what the Bible says, or what it says to people of at that time. Step two is about what the Bible says to me. And step three is about how I live it out with the Lord's help.
Perseverance in meditation is what I seek. I think spiritual growth is like the letter "W". Everyone would be like that. When they are zealous they are like boiling water and when they are cold they go down to zero. I want to remind myself of two words, "repeatedly trying and yet repeatedly defeated, yet repeatedly defeated but repeatedly trying." Weakness is also a good thing. Just admit your weakness and rely on God's power.
I think spiritual partners are necessary. Pastors need pastoral care as well and I still think that the best pastor for a pastor is their spouse, their families, or their spiritual parents. Be sure to receive the guidance from your elders.
Gospel Times: What are your personal hurts in serving?
Brother L: To be honest, I have complaints. I even think I’d rather die than serve. I think the church is not as good as society. There is no love at all in the church, the place where love is most talked about. That is my evaluation of the church. This is the very time when I need to rely on the Lord to know that I am serving Him. That is why there must be a calling upon the individual. No calling, no real continuing.
There was a time when I did not have a penny or even have a glass of water given to me while I was preaching. I complained. Back home my mother said, "why won’t you bring a cup of tea with you?" But what I want to say is that God is righteous and loving. Now when I go out to serve, I get paid and am even given tea. In the words of Hudson Taylor, "There is no shortage of God's supply to do God's work in God's way." That's the lesson of faith.
To put it another way, I think having been hurt can be a treasure. There is no shortage of people who can talk these days, but there is a serious shortage of people who can teach the true way and tell the truth. I would also like to be a bridge so as not to allow the next generation to also be hurt. I have suffered and don't want the next generation to suffer the same. This is my idea and my burden. It seems to me that suffering for the Lord and being abused by the church are two different matters.
In addition, I think the motivation and attitude of serving determine how you look at the hurts. In other words, if you have no hurts, it is very likely that people are pleasing you. This is definitely not serving the Lord because the path of the cross is inherently not easy. Jesus said, "If the world hates you, you know, it hates me first before you."
Truthfully speaking, I find the persecution from outside the church bearable, but it is hard for me to accept the strife within the church. Since the apostolic age, there have been problems and we are all sinners. No church system is perfect and only the elder system is somewhat better. There are problems everywhere. So, here on earth you and I can only find a church that is somewhat closer to the Bible's standard, and our ultimate hope lies in our future heavenly home.
- Translated by Charlie Li
Interview with Gen Z Pastor: Be Your True Self in Serving God
