Many grassroots churches in China avoid talking about money. Many people think that focusing on money is worldly and that living for wealth is not godly or spiritual. However, with the current development of Chinese churches and changes in the social environment, more and more pastors and church co-workers find that this concept may need to be adjusted.
Whether enhancing and cultivating business awareness is necessary during this episode's round table interview conducted by the Christian Times, an online Chinese Christian newspaper. One of the interviewees is Pastor James, a middle-aged pastor with more than 20 years of pastoral experience, the other is Sister Yan, a co-worker who has been serving the church for ten years and is also interested in music, writing, and education. Below is the excerpt:
Christian Times: Pastor James, what have you been busy with serving recently?
Pastor James: I have recently registered a company, and the business license has been obtained. Next, I plan to help some brothers and sisters around me to increase their income.
Christian Times: Are you going to start a business? This is very different from your previous philosophy, how did you come up with the idea of doing business?
Pastor James: In April, I read a book called Being Rich for God, which had a great impact on the change in my mind. For the Chinese church to develop, it must not only equip itself with God's word but also take care of its finances.
To begin with, I want to clarify that I am not in search of riches for myself, nor do I feel I lack anything. My goal is to "be rich for God". Along with my brothers and sisters in the church, I desire "to be rich for God."
Christian Times: Sister Yan, what do you think of the pastor’s talk about business?
Sister Yan: At present, in the Chinese church, many people dare not talk about being rich for God, they just talk about being faithful servants of God. Everyone thinks pastors are dedicated to God, so they should just concentrate on pastoring. They will never lack anything when the brothers and sisters give and supply. However, many churches are lacking. Pastor James' awareness is at the forefront in this regard.
Christian Times: According to the teachings of the Bible, many churches believe that "Levites" should not have their own inheritance, and they should concentrate on serving God. Pastor James, do you think there is something wrong with this teaching?
Pastor James: I don't think living by faith is wrong, and the "Levites" also lived well by faith. However, faith cannot be replicated since everyone's situation is different. The church needs to consider many real situations as it develops.
My income was already very high before I became a pastor. However, when I was called to full-time ministry, I lived a "Levitical" life. Also, I feel that I have won. In these 16 years, my life has been rich.
I sincerely treat believers with the love of God, take responsibility for their lives, and are willing to give to the church. The believers also love me very much, and God did not let me lack anything or treat me badly. There is no shortage of churches, and church finances are transparent. I am grateful for God's guidance and provision during this time.
But I also saw that the lives of many pastors and preachers in China can be described as "miserable". In some areas, it is fortunate that the preachers have basic living security, but in some areas, the wrong religious concepts of the pastors and believers hurt the preachers.
Foreign pastors and evangelists are less likely to encounter such problems. Many foreign pastors have dual occupations. Even if they are only pastors, the church will pay pastors salaries according to the principle that "workers deserve their wages."
Pastors who spend time and energy pastoring the church deserve to be paid for. The gospel is priceless, but pastors cannot be considered free to give.
I know that an elder has his own occupation, and his income is also very good, so he doesn't have to worry about life at all. It's a miserable situation for other full-time staff, who have no source of income and are embarrassed to ask for wages. But they have to live and support their families.
Christian Times: Indeed, in reality, this idea has made many preachers in China very embarrassed, and some people have to give up their positions and missions in order to support their families. For the Chinese church, this causes great damage.
Pastor James: Although my only income is my church salary, I lack nothing. But I have a dilemma, I used to be a top salesman. Obviously, I have the ability to make money, I could have helped more people, why should I rely on tithe and offering to live? Through this book, I found a balance, not for myself, but for God and God's kingdom, and for the Christians to be more influential in society.
Sister Yan: I agree very much with what Pastor James mentioned. I know of a brother who worked as a preacher in a church in a remote mountain area after graduating from seminary, but his monthly salary is only several hundred yuan. He not only needs to take care of the sick mother but also has to pay for his family and support his sister in high school. He has a very difficult life, and his own marriage has no financial conditions to consider.
In desperation, he could only treat church ministry as a part-time job and then chose to contract an orchard and a vegetable field to grow green food without pesticide residues. A few years later, he changed his lifestyle, soon got married, found a virtuous wife, and later had two lovely children. He is still a preacher of the church, and he also helps brothers and sisters in Christ to run a company together to improve the living conditions, and he also has spare energy to promote various ministries.
Christian Times: We heard that a pastor also emphasized that the church should have financial self-reliance, and he also encouraged Christians to contribute to society in their respective fields. This pastor believes that to abandon the “poor thinking habits” and the wrong logic of getting rich means corruption, Christians cannot become a burden to society, but can serve society and become an influential group of people. Of course, he also emphasized the importance of preaching the word of God, otherwise, there will indeed be a phenomenon of rich corruption.
Pastor James: Yes, Christian business must be based on the Scriptures. Why did I change my mind? I made my decision based on the long-term pastoring of the church.
In terms of mission, first of all, there must be financial support to carry out the mission.
From a strategic point of view, many places do not accept missionaries, but they welcome businessmen. Then we need to enter some countries and regions through means of business. We can benefit from entering certain countries as investors, and businessmen.
In terms of social services, if we are prosperous, we can do charity and public welfare to help and influence our city and community.
As a pastor, why talk about business to brothers and sisters? I want to help some grassroots churches that I know, as well as brothers and sisters, to change their views on money. Christians need to change their minds and not think that making money is a very secular thing.
Christian Times: Sister Yan, how did you start paying attention to business?
Sister Yan: I realized I needed to make money after having two children. I need to pay for food and clothing, health care, education, etc. Real financial problems need to be faced and resolved. We need to think about the future of our children. We need to think and change for our children. I hope that when faith is passed on, the next generation will have a healthy and correct understanding and experience of the faith. Otherwise, the children may grow up to be very repulsive towards the idea of being preachers. They only have a stereotyped impression of preachers as "poor", and it has been proved that many second-generation Christians have stopped on the path of ministry because of this.
Christian Times: Indeed, it is often heard that the children of preachers are more willing to choose to support the church financially.
Sister Yan: When the church encounters financial difficulties and does not have enough financial capacity to provide for the preachers, I think the preachers can follow Paul's example and make a living by weaving tents. For the expansion of various ministries, the preachers choose to serve the church after a worldly job, and they choose to labor and work with their own hands， so as to help the church get out of the financial burden. It's a beautiful thing, and it's still the way to live the beautiful life of Jesus Christ.
Christian Times: Yes, Pastor James, Jewish business is famous all over the world. Do you think this practice is worth learning, or does it need to be adjusted?
Pastor James: I think they're doing a good job, but there needs to be more integration between business and missions. I am also at the beginning. But be alert: First of all, I believe that when Christians do business, integrity is the foundation, and they must provide customers with reliable products and reliable services. Then the business philosophy we want to establish should be like what John Wesley said: "Desperately make money, desperately save money, and desperately donate money."
It is not that "I" want to become a rich man but to create wealth for the kingdom of God. If we believe in the words of God and have a sense of business, then we Christians can do better and more influential services.
- Translated by Richard Zhou
在中国不少基层教会当中是避免谈钱的。很多人认为关注钱，就是世俗，就是侍奉玛门，就是不虔诚、不属灵。然而，随着当下中国教会的发展和社会环境的变迁，愈来愈多的牧者同工发现这样的观念可能需要做出调整。
这一期的圆桌间，与两位同工就是否需要提升和培养营商意识进行了对话，其中一位是有着20多年牧养经验的中年牧者雅各牧师，一位是服事十多年关注音乐、文字和教育等多个领域的同工言姊妹。
主持人：王璐德
嘉宾：雅各牧师、言姊妹
文字整理：田玖恩
讨论内容摘录：
主持人：雅各牧师，请问您最近在忙些什么服事？
雅各牧师：我最近在注册公司，营业执照已经办下来了。接下来，准备带动我身边一些弟兄姐妹发展经济。
主持人：您要开始做生意了吗？这和您之前的理念有很大的不同，您是怎么想到要营商的？
雅各牧师：4月份，我读了一本书《为神做个有钱人》，这对我的观念转变有很大影响。我觉得中国教会如果想发展，除了要在真理上装备，经济也是要需要重视的。
但我先声明：我不是为了自己变得富有，我个人并不觉得缺乏。我是要“为上帝成为有钱人”。我还要带着教会的弟兄姐妹一起“为上帝做有钱人”。
主持人：言姊妹，您怎么看待牧者谈营商？
言姊妹：目前在中国教会，很多人不敢讲为上帝做有钱人，只是说为上帝做忠心的仆人。大家都认为牧师这个职业是奉献给上帝了，你就专心牧养就好。教会有弟兄姊妹奉献供应，你就不会缺乏。但是现实很多教会就是很缺乏。我认为雅各牧师在这方面的意识是走在前沿的。
主持人：不少教会根据圣经的教导，认为“利未人”不该有自己的产业，他们就应该专心事奉上帝。雅各牧师，您认为这个教导有问题吗？
雅各牧师：“利未人”的信心生活也很美好，我不认为凭信心生活有错。但是每个人情况不一样，信心是不可“复制”的。现在教会发展有很多现实的情况要去考虑。
我做牧会之前做了10年营销，当时我的收入就已经很高了。但是当我领受呼召做全职事奉后，我就彻底过上了“利未人”的生活。我觉得我也得胜了，这16年，我的生活是富足的。
我真心用上帝的爱对待信徒，对他们的生命负责，他们也愿意为教会奉献。信徒也很爱我，上帝没有让我缺乏，没有亏待我。教会也不缺乏、教会财务都是透明的。我很感谢这段时间上帝的带领和供应。
但是我也看到在国内很多牧者传道人的生活可以用“苦不堪言”来形容。有些地区还好传道人有基本的生活保障，但是有些地区的牧者和信徒错误的宗教观念害惨了传道人。
国外牧者和传道人不太会遇到这类问题。国外牧者很多人有双重职业，即便只有牧师一个身份，教会也会按照“工人得工价是应当的”这个原则来付牧师薪水。
牧师花费时间和精力来牧养教会，理当得到报酬。福音是无价的，但不能认为牧师就该无偿奉献。
我知道一位长老是有自己的职业的，他的待遇也很好，完全不用担心生活。其他全职同工这可就惨了，他们没有任何收入来源，也不好意思要工资。可是他们要生活、要养家啊。
主持人：的确，现实上这种观念导致国内很多传道人生活很窘迫，一些人为了养家不得已放弃这个位置和使命。对中国教会来讲，是一种很大的破坏。
雅各牧师：虽然，我靠教会的工资也没有缺乏。可是我有一个困惑，我曾经是金牌销售。明明有赚钱的能力，我本可以帮助更多人，为什么我还要靠奉献？通过这本书，我找到了平衡点，不是为我自己，是为了上帝和上帝的国度，为了基督徒群体能够在社会上更有影响力。
言姊妹：雅各牧师所提到的，我非常认同，我知道有一位弟兄神学毕业后在偏远山区的教会做传道人，但是每月几百元的工资既要养生病的母亲，又要共读高中的妹妹，生活非常艰难，自己的婚姻也没有条件考虑。
无奈之下，他只能选择带职，之后选择承包一个果园和一片菜地，种植无农残的绿色食品。几年之后，他结束了贫困的生活，也很快结婚成家，找到一位贤惠的妻子，后来也有了两个可爱的孩子。他现在依然做教会传道人，另外也带动主内弟兄姐妹一起经营一个公司，帮助改善教会和弟兄姐妹的生活现状，而且也有余力推动各项事工。
主持人：之前我听过一位带职服事的牧者的分享，他也强调教会要有经济自立思维，他也鼓励基督徒要在各自的领域创造社会价值。这位牧者认为要弃绝穷人思维、有钱就腐败的错误逻辑，基督徒不能成为社会的负担，而是能够服务社会、成为有影响力的一群人。当然他同时强调教导真理的重要性，否则的确会出现有钱腐败的现象。
雅各牧师：是的，基督徒营商一定要以真理为前提。为什么我转变观念了呢？我是从教会长远发展来看而作出决定的。
1，从宣教来讲，首先开展宣教是一定要有经济支持的。
2，从策略来讲，很多地方不接受宣教士，但他们欢迎商人。那我们就需要以营商的方式进入一些国家和地区。我们可以作为投资者、商人的身份进入某些国家给他们带来益处。
3，从社会服务上来说，如果我们富足，我们可以做慈善、做公益来帮助和影响我们的城市和社区。
作为牧师，为什么对弟兄姐妹谈商业？我想引导一些我认识的基层教会、引导弟兄姐妹改变对金钱的看法，基督徒需要转变观念，不要觉得赚钱就是很世俗的事情。
主持人：言姊妹，您是怎么开始关注营商的呢？
言姊妹：我意识到需要赚钱是有了两个孩子之后。吃穿用度、健康医疗、教育费用等等。现实的需要，就是要去面对和解决。我们也要考虑孩子未来的出路，孩子迫使我们思考和改变。我希望信仰传承下去的时候，下一代对信仰能有健康、正确的认识和体验。不然孩子们长大了可能会很排斥做传道人。他们只会对传道人有一个刻板的印象就是“穷”，事实也已经证明很多基督徒二代因此在事奉的道路上止步了。
主持人：的确是，现在常听到传道人的孩子更愿意选择在经济上支持教会。
言姊妹：当教会遭遇经济困难，没有足够的能力来供应传道人的时候，我觉得传道人可以效法保罗，来走一条织帐篷的道路。为了各项事工的拓展，传道人选择带职侍奉，用自己的双手劳力，以帮助教会走出困境。这是很美好的事情，这依然是活出耶稣基督美好的生命的样式。
主持人：是的，雅各牧师，犹太人经商在全世界闻名，您觉得这种做法值得学习，还是需要调整？
雅各牧师：我认为他们做的很好，但是商业和宣教要有更多结合。我现在也是开道路的阶段。不过要警醒地是：首先，我认为基督徒做商业，诚信是根本，一定要为顾客提供可靠的产品和可靠的服务。然后我们要树立的商业理念应该是像约翰卫斯理所说的：“拼命的赚钱，拼命的省钱，拼命的捐钱。”
不是“我”要成为有钱人，而是为神国创造财富。相信有真理，又有营商意识的话，那么基督徒的服事可以做的更好，也会更有影响力。
主持人：感谢两位的分享，我们盼望中国教会在基督里变得富足，能够帮助更多的人。
圆桌间| 对话二位牧者同工：中国教会当下是否需要提升营商意识？
Many grassroots churches in China avoid talking about money. Many people think that focusing on money is worldly and that living for wealth is not godly or spiritual. However, with the current development of Chinese churches and changes in the social environment, more and more pastors and church co-workers find that this concept may need to be adjusted.
Whether enhancing and cultivating business awareness is necessary during this episode's round table interview conducted by the Christian Times, an online Chinese Christian newspaper. One of the interviewees is Pastor James, a middle-aged pastor with more than 20 years of pastoral experience, the other is Sister Yan, a co-worker who has been serving the church for ten years and is also interested in music, writing, and education. Below is the excerpt:
Christian Times: Pastor James, what have you been busy with serving recently?
Pastor James: I have recently registered a company, and the business license has been obtained. Next, I plan to help some brothers and sisters around me to increase their income.
Christian Times: Are you going to start a business? This is very different from your previous philosophy, how did you come up with the idea of doing business?
Pastor James: In April, I read a book called Being Rich for God, which had a great impact on the change in my mind. For the Chinese church to develop, it must not only equip itself with God's word but also take care of its finances.
To begin with, I want to clarify that I am not in search of riches for myself, nor do I feel I lack anything. My goal is to "be rich for God". Along with my brothers and sisters in the church, I desire "to be rich for God."
Christian Times: Sister Yan, what do you think of the pastor’s talk about business?
Sister Yan: At present, in the Chinese church, many people dare not talk about being rich for God, they just talk about being faithful servants of God. Everyone thinks pastors are dedicated to God, so they should just concentrate on pastoring. They will never lack anything when the brothers and sisters give and supply. However, many churches are lacking. Pastor James' awareness is at the forefront in this regard.
Christian Times: According to the teachings of the Bible, many churches believe that "Levites" should not have their own inheritance, and they should concentrate on serving God. Pastor James, do you think there is something wrong with this teaching?
Pastor James: I don't think living by faith is wrong, and the "Levites" also lived well by faith. However, faith cannot be replicated since everyone's situation is different. The church needs to consider many real situations as it develops.
My income was already very high before I became a pastor. However, when I was called to full-time ministry, I lived a "Levitical" life. Also, I feel that I have won. In these 16 years, my life has been rich.
I sincerely treat believers with the love of God, take responsibility for their lives, and are willing to give to the church. The believers also love me very much, and God did not let me lack anything or treat me badly. There is no shortage of churches, and church finances are transparent. I am grateful for God's guidance and provision during this time.
But I also saw that the lives of many pastors and preachers in China can be described as "miserable". In some areas, it is fortunate that the preachers have basic living security, but in some areas, the wrong religious concepts of the pastors and believers hurt the preachers.
Foreign pastors and evangelists are less likely to encounter such problems. Many foreign pastors have dual occupations. Even if they are only pastors, the church will pay pastors salaries according to the principle that "workers deserve their wages."
Pastors who spend time and energy pastoring the church deserve to be paid for. The gospel is priceless, but pastors cannot be considered free to give.
I know that an elder has his own occupation, and his income is also very good, so he doesn't have to worry about life at all. It's a miserable situation for other full-time staff, who have no source of income and are embarrassed to ask for wages. But they have to live and support their families.
Christian Times: Indeed, in reality, this idea has made many preachers in China very embarrassed, and some people have to give up their positions and missions in order to support their families. For the Chinese church, this causes great damage.
Pastor James: Although my only income is my church salary, I lack nothing. But I have a dilemma, I used to be a top salesman. Obviously, I have the ability to make money, I could have helped more people, why should I rely on tithe and offering to live? Through this book, I found a balance, not for myself, but for God and God's kingdom, and for the Christians to be more influential in society.
Sister Yan: I agree very much with what Pastor James mentioned. I know of a brother who worked as a preacher in a church in a remote mountain area after graduating from seminary, but his monthly salary is only several hundred yuan. He not only needs to take care of the sick mother but also has to pay for his family and support his sister in high school. He has a very difficult life, and his own marriage has no financial conditions to consider.
In desperation, he could only treat church ministry as a part-time job and then chose to contract an orchard and a vegetable field to grow green food without pesticide residues. A few years later, he changed his lifestyle, soon got married, found a virtuous wife, and later had two lovely children. He is still a preacher of the church, and he also helps brothers and sisters in Christ to run a company together to improve the living conditions, and he also has spare energy to promote various ministries.
Christian Times: We heard that a pastor also emphasized that the church should have financial self-reliance, and he also encouraged Christians to contribute to society in their respective fields. This pastor believes that to abandon the “poor thinking habits” and the wrong logic of getting rich means corruption, Christians cannot become a burden to society, but can serve society and become an influential group of people. Of course, he also emphasized the importance of preaching the word of God, otherwise, there will indeed be a phenomenon of rich corruption.
Pastor James: Yes, Christian business must be based on the Scriptures. Why did I change my mind? I made my decision based on the long-term pastoring of the church.
In terms of mission, first of all, there must be financial support to carry out the mission.
From a strategic point of view, many places do not accept missionaries, but they welcome businessmen. Then we need to enter some countries and regions through means of business. We can benefit from entering certain countries as investors, and businessmen.
In terms of social services, if we are prosperous, we can do charity and public welfare to help and influence our city and community.
As a pastor, why talk about business to brothers and sisters? I want to help some grassroots churches that I know, as well as brothers and sisters, to change their views on money. Christians need to change their minds and not think that making money is a very secular thing.
Christian Times: Sister Yan, how did you start paying attention to business?
Sister Yan: I realized I needed to make money after having two children. I need to pay for food and clothing, health care, education, etc. Real financial problems need to be faced and resolved. We need to think about the future of our children. We need to think and change for our children. I hope that when faith is passed on, the next generation will have a healthy and correct understanding and experience of the faith. Otherwise, the children may grow up to be very repulsive towards the idea of being preachers. They only have a stereotyped impression of preachers as "poor", and it has been proved that many second-generation Christians have stopped on the path of ministry because of this.
Christian Times: Indeed, it is often heard that the children of preachers are more willing to choose to support the church financially.
Sister Yan: When the church encounters financial difficulties and does not have enough financial capacity to provide for the preachers, I think the preachers can follow Paul's example and make a living by weaving tents. For the expansion of various ministries, the preachers choose to serve the church after a worldly job, and they choose to labor and work with their own hands， so as to help the church get out of the financial burden. It's a beautiful thing, and it's still the way to live the beautiful life of Jesus Christ.
Christian Times: Yes, Pastor James, Jewish business is famous all over the world. Do you think this practice is worth learning, or does it need to be adjusted?
Pastor James: I think they're doing a good job, but there needs to be more integration between business and missions. I am also at the beginning. But be alert: First of all, I believe that when Christians do business, integrity is the foundation, and they must provide customers with reliable products and reliable services. Then the business philosophy we want to establish should be like what John Wesley said: "Desperately make money, desperately save money, and desperately donate money."
It is not that "I" want to become a rich man but to create wealth for the kingdom of God. If we believe in the words of God and have a sense of business, then we Christians can do better and more influential services.
- Translated by Richard Zhou
Roundtable: Chinese Church Needs to Raise Awareness of Business as Mission
