In recent years, some churches have come to understand the importance of reading and began to explore various forms of reading clubs to promote study and communication among believers. Pastor Z, from East China, has many years’ experience in shepherding young people. Later, he chose to serve in the field of culture and founded a cultural ministry to help churches and Christians promote a combination of faith, culture, and life. His first ministry was promoting book clubs in different cities nearly three years ago.
A few days ago, Pastor Z had a talk on this with the Christian Times, an online Chinese Christian newspaper. He especially hoped that Chinese churches would recognize the importance of a cultural atmosphere of readings, dialogue, and discussion and would therefore promote the shaping of this culture and atmosphere through book clubs, tea parties, symposiums and forums.
The following is the part 2 of the interview between the Christian Times (CT) and Pastor Z (see part 1 here):
CT: You just said that the church needs to be aware of the importance of increased readings, dialogues, discussions, and other forms. Now you are emphasizing communication on the basis of readings and dialogues. Do you think there are any differences or similarities between the discussions and the first two forms?
Z: Our book club plays a popular science role because I find that reading is a kind of self-seeking, but this state is relatively broad and loose. If discussions were added, we would enter a state of more quality in the self-seeking process.
For example, scholars and pastors are relatively thoughtful. They are thoughtful or practical about a certain topic. They discuss a certain topic together and sort out a clue. Here is not the part as a standard answer, but a part of sorting out a clue to topics.
Many listeners need this kind of centralized sorting out, which helps to map out the fragments they have learned.
Reading clubs may play a more popular role. It is a slower process of education. The relevant discussions are more highlighted, qualitative, constructive, or closer to implementation.
CT: You have been emphasizing the importance of promoting discussion, and some of the main ways to promote it are through focus groups, tea parties, or forums. Do you think it is necessary to hold some forum activities?
Z: Some Christians are beginning to realize that they want to have reading clubs and the significance of the cultural mission of Christianity. However, the book clubs aren’t just for books. In fact, it needs more systematic discussions and seminars to achieve deeper results, such as some topics about the establishment of the church and communion in the post-epidemic era. Of course, maybe these problems are not to be solved with a simple answer but may require some discussion and a group of thoughtful people. It is not to give a mature result through similar forum discussions, but to bring out quality results through a discussion. This achievement will help the present church.
If it has a constructive effect on the church and Christian community, the topics that may be discussed may not necessarily be too academic, too profound, or metaphysical, but may be more focused and interesting issues aimed at the actual situation or the current times, and these issues that have deeper significance and influence on the church. Then these issues may need to be stimulated and promoted through thinking, communicating, and rambling to see if some quality results can be obtained and then returned to the church.
CT: When it comes to discussion, it’s easy to get caught up in criticism, for example, or just confined to metaphysical discussions, which will lead to a tear-down between Christians and the church. What do you think of this?
Z: I think whether the discussion is critical or complete, or specific in time or purely academic, this is not the core reason for the tear-down. Personally, I think the main reason for it is that the discussion replaces the church itself, and it may cause that.
First of all, it is clear that this kind of discussion cannot replace the church itself, otherwise, it may cause a tear. I prefer that the discussion is peripheral, not a specific one, that is, you don’t go inside others, such as other churches, to criticize and guide something - you don’t go inside others’ houses to comment, and you don’t go inside others’ homes to say whether this is good or bad - but you can be an exhibition hall in which you can show a template, and this presentation is a discussion.
Second of all, the mentality is very important. I think criticizing sometimes is not a bad thing if it is for good. Criticism is that if the house is going to collapse and if a pillar is needed in a place, then you must put one there.
Critical discussion is sometimes not a bad thing but depends on the motivation and effect. It’s like pointing out that a house is going to collapse and commanding that a pillar be built to support it. This is an auxiliary role. The biggest result of this criticism is not to enter other people’s houses to build or demolish them directly. The enthusiasm of the discussion is that it is an exhibition hall, showing what kind of house will collapse, and then listing several templates for repair and reinforcement. In this sense, the discussion is positive.
In fact, we want to show the repaired and reinforced effect through an exhibition hall, which is a positive textbook effect.
CT: You have been talking about whether the discussion you want to do is mainly aimed at the church or the Christian community. How do you consider these?
Z: Discussion is a bridge. It may be a bridge between pastors and pastors’ practice, or between church and society.
CT: What kinds of topics do you think are worth discussing now? Which topics are more constructive?
Z: Many topics really need to be discussed. For example, if it is related to the internal affairs of the church, it can broaden one’s horizons. Finally, it is beneficial to turn these metaphysical things into a kind of practice and a kind of guidance, which is a driving force for guidance. This kind of discussion has a positive concept and significance.
Of course, my personal ideas are certainly limited. For example, the tearing of reformed theology and the spiritual grace movement in the church, the faction that believes that sects are restored and some conservative evangelicals refuse to restore the tension of sects - such are topics that we can hardly avoid. Sometimes we will encounter a barrier, that is, there is no bridge for dialogues, a “black or white” issue.
CT: In reality, there are some “black or white” cultural phenomena in the church. For example, if in the future, in the course of your discussion, there may be problems that are difficult to listen to, how do you think you should avoid them?
Z: It is difficult to solve this problem at once. The discussion needs a lot of warm-up and foreshadowing, and it’s hard for us to determine who will not have conflicts when we get together.
In the normal process of a reading club, those who can come in are constantly trained in the process of reading, and those who have too strong a personality may not stay in the reading club for a long time. Individualized reading will constantly strengthen one’s point of view. A person who persists in a reading club has a certain cognitive height. Only when they want to solve problems will they have a process of seeking understanding, and they are not in a hurry to make a judgment. This is the role of the book club in screening groups.
I think, in faith, after all, we are not trying to achieve personal correctness, but to achieve the correctness of a result, so we need to tolerate a process of giving birth to good thinking.
CT: Imagine that, for example, if you set up a forum to invite people who are familiar with you or have similar positions to discuss with you, then you may think that it only unites the majority that you want to unite, and there are no people with completely different or even hostile positions. What do you think of that?
Z: I just feel that two different views have a chance to be presented in different identities. It is necessary to present each other’s views on a forum-style third-party platform. Just like a bookstore with different books, preachers can browse different views when they go to the bookstore. The same is true of forums. Many people can be a listener in forums, and they have a lot of benefits in the process of listening. Sometimes the forum also needs to provide an introduction, not just to talk about opinions, but an occasion for them to have more communication, which will make many conversations less difficult.
Many young people in the church are confused and struggling. I see the disconnect between young people and the church, and there are fewer and fewer young people in the church. The conservative and basic model makes people out of touch with life, and the belief and life of young people are out of touch. The church should be correct in the basic truth, but after the young leave the service, they will have a lot of puzzles in reality, and problems in their marriage and the workplace that cannot be solved. If for a long time they can’t be solved, young people will be dragged more into the secular world, and they will be dragged into another world that they feel is more real. In fact, this is a serious disconnection.
Therefore, the reading club, literature tour, marriage, and love lecture, workplace seminar, etc. that I do are generally aimed at the young people of the future church. It can be said that, whether it is the way of reading a book club or holding various kinds of discussions in the future, in fact, my whole ministry is an operation aimed at the young people of the church in the future.
- Translated by Charlie Li
最近几年出现一个新的现象，即国内一些教会陆续看到读书会的重要性，并开始尝试和探索各种不同形式的读书会的方式来促进信徒之间的学习和交流。
Z牧师是华东一位牧者，拥有多年牧养青年人的经验，后来选择在文化领域进行服事，创办了一家文化事工来帮助教会和基督徒推进信仰、文化和生活相结合，其中首先就是近3年前在不同的城市推动读书会开始，到今天已经逐渐看到成长，也积累了不少经验，同时对未来的发展也有了更多思考。
日前，Z牧师与基督时报的同工就此相关的话题进行了分享，他特别谈到自己的一种期待：希望中国教会更多看到阅读、对话和讨论的文化氛围的重要性，并透过读书会、茶话会、座谈、论坛等各种不同的具体形式来推动这一文化和氛围的塑造和形成。
（续：对话| 华东一牧者：期待中国教会更多形成阅读、对话和讨论的文化氛围（上））
CT：您刚说到教会需要意识到加强阅读、对话、讨论等形式的重要性。您现在开始在阅读和对话交流的基础上强调交流了，您觉得讨论与前两者相比有什么区别和相同点吗？
Z：我们在看读书会的时候，我会觉得它还是有一种科普性的角色，因为我发现大家在阅读中是一种自我的寻找，这个状态是比较宽泛和松散的。如果加上讨论的话，我们会进入到比较有质量的寻找的状态里面。
比如，寻找相对有思考深度的学者和牧者，他们对某个话题是有思考的，或者有实践的，他们一起讨论某个话题梳理成一条线索。这里不是用作标准答案的部分，而是作为梳理的部分。
很多听众需要这种集中的梳理，有助于把他们所了解到的碎片进行整理。
读书会可能更加有科普的角色，更加是慢教育的过程，而这种讨论是更有亮点的、更有质量的、更有建设性，或者接近于可有实施性。
CT：您一直在强调促进讨论的重要性，其中促进讨论一种主要的方式比如座谈会、茶话会或论坛等。您觉得是否举办一些论坛活动也很有需要呢？
Z：有一些基督徒的开始意识到要做读书会了，意识到基督教的文化使命的意义。但是读书会不是简单地读一点书就可以了，实际上它是需要增加一些更加有体系性的讨论和研讨才有更深的成果，比如关于后疫情时代教会的建制和圣餐等一些话题。当然，可能这些问题并不是要给出一个简单的答案来解决的，而是可能需要一些讨论和一批有思考的人；并不是要通过类似论坛性的讨论给出一个已经成熟的结果，而是通过一种探讨带出有质量的成果。这个成果会给现在的教会带来帮助。
如果是对教会和基督徒群体有建设性作用的话，可能讨论的话题不一定是一些太学术性、太高深的、形而上的话题，可能更多是针对实际情况或当下时代比较专注的、感兴趣的一些问题，而这些问题是对教会有更深的意义和影响的，那么这些问题可能需要通过思考、交流、漫谈的形式来激发和促进看看是否能够得出一些有质量的成果出来，再返还给教会。
CT：如果谈到讨论，很容易比如陷入到批判里面，或者只是限于形而上学的讨论，这都会导致基督徒与教会的一种撕裂。您怎么看待这种和避免呢？
Z：我是觉得讨论无论是批判性的还是说成全性的，或者是说具体时间的或者纯粹就是学术性的，这倒不是最核心的撕裂的原因，我个人觉得撕裂主要的原因就是讨论取代了教会本身，它可能就会造成撕裂。
首先明确的是，这种讨论不能取代教会本身，否则可能会造成一种撕裂。我更希望讨论是一个外围的东西，不是一个具体的，就是您不进到别人的内部比如别的教会里面去批判和指导什么——您不到别人的房子里面去点评，不去别人家里面去说这个好还是不好——但是您可是做一个展厅，您可以展示出一个模板，而这个展示就是一个讨论。
心态首先很重要，我觉得批判有的时候他的心态如果是为了好的话，也不是坏事儿。批判本身是房子要塌了，这个地方安个柱子，那您必须得安。
，批判性的讨论有时也不是坏事，但要看动机和效果，就好像指出某个房子要塌了，建议他要安装一个柱子作为支撑，这个是辅助性的作用和角色。这种批判最大的结果并不是要进入到别人的房子直接去建或者去拆。讨论的积极性在于它是一个展厅，展示出来怎样的房子会塌，然后罗列出来几个修缮和加固的模版。这种意义上来说讨论是积极的。
其实我们是要通过一个展厅把修缮和加固好的那个效果去呈现出来，那这种呈现是积极的一种教科书的效果。
CT：您一直在谈了希望做起来的讨论主要是针对教会还是基督徒群体呢？您是怎么考虑这些的？
Z：讨论是一个桥梁。它可能是牧者与牧者实践的桥梁，也可以是教会与社会之间的桥梁。
CT：您觉得现在值得讨论的话题有哪些种类呢？哪些话题是比较有建设性？
Z：不少话题其实很需要讨论。比如与实际教会内部事务相关，可以开拓眼界，最后能够把这些形而上的东西转化成一种实践的一种指导的东西都很有益，就是指导的一种动力。这种讨论它是有一种有积极概念和意义的。
当然我个人的想法肯定是有局限的。比如像改革宗神学和灵恩运动在教会中的撕裂、认为宗派恢复的一派和一些保守的福音派拒绝恢复宗派的这种张力，这是我们很难回避的话题。我们有的时候会进入一个壁垒，就是没有对话的桥梁，就是“非黑即白”。
CT：现实中，教会存在着一些“非黑即白”的文化现象。比如如果将来在您做的讨论的过程中，可能有很难聆听的问题产生，您觉得要怎么回避呢？
Z：这个问题是很难马上解决的。讨论需要大量的预热和铺垫，我们很难一上来就确定哪些人在一起不会产生冲突。
在常态的读书会的过程中，能够进来的人不断在读书的过程当中得到训练，过于有强烈的个性的人可能就不会在读书会长久呆下去。而个人化的读书是会不断加强自己的观点，在读书会坚持下去的人有一定的认知高度，他想要解决问题才会有寻求了解的过程，并不急于去做一个判断。这是读书会起到的筛选群体的作用。
我想，在信仰中，我们终究不是为了成就个人的正确，而是为了成就一个结果的正确，那就需要容忍一个诞生好的思考的过程。
CT：设想比如您做的论坛设定是邀请的您所熟悉或者立场比较相近的人一起讨论，那么也许会认为只是团结了您想要团结的大多数，而没有比如立场完全不一样甚至敌对的人。您是怎么看待的呢？
Z：我就觉得两种不同的观点在不同的认同中都有机会让他呈现。需要在一个论坛式的第三方平台呈现出彼此的观点。就好比一个书店有各种不同书籍的呈现，传道人去书店的时候可以浏览不同的观点。论坛也是一样，很多人可以在论坛做一个倾听者，在倾听的过程中他有很多的受益。论坛有的时候也需要给他提供预热，不仅仅是来谈观点，而是一个场合，让他们有更多的交际，这会让很多对话没有那么难。
教会里面不少年轻人是有困惑和挣扎的。我看到年轻人和教会的脱节，年轻人在教会越来越少。保守、基要的模式让人和生活脱节，年轻人的信仰和生活脱节。在基要的真理上教会应该是正确的，但出去之后您就会有很多的现实中的困惑问题的婚姻的问题、职场的问题不能解决。长久不能解决以后呃，年轻人会更多地被拉到世俗当中，他会被拉到另外一个自己觉得更真实的世界里面，其实这就是一种严重的脱节。
所以，我做的读书会、文旅、婚恋讲座、职场研讨等，总体是针对未来教会的年轻人这一群体。可以说，无论是读书会这些方式，还是未来举办各种形式的讨论，其实我这个总体是来针对未来教会的年轻人这个群体的一种操作。
对话|华东一牧者：期待中国教会更多形成阅读、对话和讨论的文化氛围（下）
In recent years, some churches have come to understand the importance of reading and began to explore various forms of reading clubs to promote study and communication among believers. Pastor Z, from East China, has many years’ experience in shepherding young people. Later, he chose to serve in the field of culture and founded a cultural ministry to help churches and Christians promote a combination of faith, culture, and life. His first ministry was promoting book clubs in different cities nearly three years ago.
A few days ago, Pastor Z had a talk on this with the Christian Times, an online Chinese Christian newspaper. He especially hoped that Chinese churches would recognize the importance of a cultural atmosphere of readings, dialogue, and discussion and would therefore promote the shaping of this culture and atmosphere through book clubs, tea parties, symposiums and forums.
The following is the part 2 of the interview between the Christian Times (CT) and Pastor Z (see part 1 here):
CT: You just said that the church needs to be aware of the importance of increased readings, dialogues, discussions, and other forms. Now you are emphasizing communication on the basis of readings and dialogues. Do you think there are any differences or similarities between the discussions and the first two forms?
Z: Our book club plays a popular science role because I find that reading is a kind of self-seeking, but this state is relatively broad and loose. If discussions were added, we would enter a state of more quality in the self-seeking process.
For example, scholars and pastors are relatively thoughtful. They are thoughtful or practical about a certain topic. They discuss a certain topic together and sort out a clue. Here is not the part as a standard answer, but a part of sorting out a clue to topics.
Many listeners need this kind of centralized sorting out, which helps to map out the fragments they have learned.
Reading clubs may play a more popular role. It is a slower process of education. The relevant discussions are more highlighted, qualitative, constructive, or closer to implementation.
CT: You have been emphasizing the importance of promoting discussion, and some of the main ways to promote it are through focus groups, tea parties, or forums. Do you think it is necessary to hold some forum activities?
Z: Some Christians are beginning to realize that they want to have reading clubs and the significance of the cultural mission of Christianity. However, the book clubs aren’t just for books. In fact, it needs more systematic discussions and seminars to achieve deeper results, such as some topics about the establishment of the church and communion in the post-epidemic era. Of course, maybe these problems are not to be solved with a simple answer but may require some discussion and a group of thoughtful people. It is not to give a mature result through similar forum discussions, but to bring out quality results through a discussion. This achievement will help the present church.
If it has a constructive effect on the church and Christian community, the topics that may be discussed may not necessarily be too academic, too profound, or metaphysical, but may be more focused and interesting issues aimed at the actual situation or the current times, and these issues that have deeper significance and influence on the church. Then these issues may need to be stimulated and promoted through thinking, communicating, and rambling to see if some quality results can be obtained and then returned to the church.
CT: When it comes to discussion, it’s easy to get caught up in criticism, for example, or just confined to metaphysical discussions, which will lead to a tear-down between Christians and the church. What do you think of this?
Z: I think whether the discussion is critical or complete, or specific in time or purely academic, this is not the core reason for the tear-down. Personally, I think the main reason for it is that the discussion replaces the church itself, and it may cause that.
First of all, it is clear that this kind of discussion cannot replace the church itself, otherwise, it may cause a tear. I prefer that the discussion is peripheral, not a specific one, that is, you don’t go inside others, such as other churches, to criticize and guide something - you don’t go inside others’ houses to comment, and you don’t go inside others’ homes to say whether this is good or bad - but you can be an exhibition hall in which you can show a template, and this presentation is a discussion.
Second of all, the mentality is very important. I think criticizing sometimes is not a bad thing if it is for good. Criticism is that if the house is going to collapse and if a pillar is needed in a place, then you must put one there.
Critical discussion is sometimes not a bad thing but depends on the motivation and effect. It’s like pointing out that a house is going to collapse and commanding that a pillar be built to support it. This is an auxiliary role. The biggest result of this criticism is not to enter other people’s houses to build or demolish them directly. The enthusiasm of the discussion is that it is an exhibition hall, showing what kind of house will collapse, and then listing several templates for repair and reinforcement. In this sense, the discussion is positive.
In fact, we want to show the repaired and reinforced effect through an exhibition hall, which is a positive textbook effect.
CT: You have been talking about whether the discussion you want to do is mainly aimed at the church or the Christian community. How do you consider these?
Z: Discussion is a bridge. It may be a bridge between pastors and pastors’ practice, or between church and society.
CT: What kinds of topics do you think are worth discussing now? Which topics are more constructive?
Z: Many topics really need to be discussed. For example, if it is related to the internal affairs of the church, it can broaden one’s horizons. Finally, it is beneficial to turn these metaphysical things into a kind of practice and a kind of guidance, which is a driving force for guidance. This kind of discussion has a positive concept and significance.
Of course, my personal ideas are certainly limited. For example, the tearing of reformed theology and the spiritual grace movement in the church, the faction that believes that sects are restored and some conservative evangelicals refuse to restore the tension of sects - such are topics that we can hardly avoid. Sometimes we will encounter a barrier, that is, there is no bridge for dialogues, a “black or white” issue.
CT: In reality, there are some “black or white” cultural phenomena in the church. For example, if in the future, in the course of your discussion, there may be problems that are difficult to listen to, how do you think you should avoid them?
Z: It is difficult to solve this problem at once. The discussion needs a lot of warm-up and foreshadowing, and it’s hard for us to determine who will not have conflicts when we get together.
In the normal process of a reading club, those who can come in are constantly trained in the process of reading, and those who have too strong a personality may not stay in the reading club for a long time. Individualized reading will constantly strengthen one’s point of view. A person who persists in a reading club has a certain cognitive height. Only when they want to solve problems will they have a process of seeking understanding, and they are not in a hurry to make a judgment. This is the role of the book club in screening groups.
I think, in faith, after all, we are not trying to achieve personal correctness, but to achieve the correctness of a result, so we need to tolerate a process of giving birth to good thinking.
CT: Imagine that, for example, if you set up a forum to invite people who are familiar with you or have similar positions to discuss with you, then you may think that it only unites the majority that you want to unite, and there are no people with completely different or even hostile positions. What do you think of that?
Z: I just feel that two different views have a chance to be presented in different identities. It is necessary to present each other’s views on a forum-style third-party platform. Just like a bookstore with different books, preachers can browse different views when they go to the bookstore. The same is true of forums. Many people can be a listener in forums, and they have a lot of benefits in the process of listening. Sometimes the forum also needs to provide an introduction, not just to talk about opinions, but an occasion for them to have more communication, which will make many conversations less difficult.
Many young people in the church are confused and struggling. I see the disconnect between young people and the church, and there are fewer and fewer young people in the church. The conservative and basic model makes people out of touch with life, and the belief and life of young people are out of touch. The church should be correct in the basic truth, but after the young leave the service, they will have a lot of puzzles in reality, and problems in their marriage and the workplace that cannot be solved. If for a long time they can’t be solved, young people will be dragged more into the secular world, and they will be dragged into another world that they feel is more real. In fact, this is a serious disconnection.
Therefore, the reading club, literature tour, marriage, and love lecture, workplace seminar, etc. that I do are generally aimed at the young people of the future church. It can be said that, whether it is the way of reading a book club or holding various kinds of discussions in the future, in fact, my whole ministry is an operation aimed at the young people of the church in the future.
- Translated by Charlie Li
Pastor Urges for an Atmosphere of Culture by Increasing Readings, Dialogue, Discussion in Chinese Churches (Part 2)
