Since the Covid-19 outbreak over two months ago, people have suffered from diseases, faced financial stress or experienced family conflict. People's minds have also been disturbed by panic and uneasiness, even leading to serious psychological problems among some people. Reports suggest that after the pandemic the number of depression sufferers might increase sharply. In the heavily stricken areas of Wuhan, the traumatic effects on its population of nine million people cannot be overlooked.
Recently, China Christian Daily interviewed Pastor Gu Zhourong, a pastoral counselor who gave ideas about what psychological counseling services the church can provide.
CCD: What are the psychological conditions of the people with whom you are working during this outbreak?
Pastor Gu: The conditions of many persons include anxiety, depression, stress, insomnia, headache, heart palpitations, or fear of death. Some family conflicts have flared up during this time. There are also work and life issues. I got a call for help from a believer last night who recently became very anxious and irritable because of problems she encountered both at home and work. She wanted to seek my help.
This is a time in which our faith is tested. People who really believe and live a life of faith often look to God even more when encountering problems. There are also believers who have no real inner life of faith. Such believers often complain, are angry or experience panic more than they rely on God. They may find themselves caught in a vicious circle.
CCD: During the outbreak, many counseling hotlines have emerged and some Christian institutions and churches have provided similar services. What do you think of this development? As far as you are concerned, how effective is this kind of hotline?
Pastor Gu: The Jiangyin City Mental Health Association with which I work has launched a counseling hotline. I find that our society as a whole has not been aware or kept up with the need for counseling. Very few people perceive psychological problems as serious enough to require serious solutions.
In my work during the outbreak, I have found that some hotline counselors have little experience, even though they have obtained a national secondary or third-level psychological counselor qualification. During the outbreak, these counsellors are enthusiastic and proactive in helping people online, but due to the lack of practical experience the help they can provide to seekers is limited. I believe careful consideration should be given because there are many psychological problems that can only be addressed with solid professional and theoretical knowledge combined with practical experience. They cannot be solved with mere passion.
Many churches have done well in providing a pastoral hotline during the outbreak. When it comes to matters of faith, the Church can do a lot to help. When it comes to psychological problems, mild cases can be solved by pastors. However, for believers who suffer from high anxiety, irritability, insomnia, depression and other serious psychological problems, I suggest they consult with professional counselors. There is a "principle of boundaries;" we pastors should not think of ourselves as "saviors." It is important to understand that there is a limit to the help we can give believers.
CCD: How can pastors be more professional in helping believers with psychological problems?
Pastor Gu: Many Christians think that psychological problems can be solved by prayer, without acknowledging that these problems are an illness. If local pastors do not have professional knowledge, they may associate the hallucinations that accompany deep depression and anxiety suffered by believers with a mystical Christian world of dreams and visions; the patients of schizophrenia might be viewed as being possessed by demons.
I recently met a believer who had a major blow in life two years ago, and the patient's mental state was not stable. As a result, pathological neurosis may occur in the body due to prolonged negative emotions. Physically, the patient complains of discomfort in different parts of the body, but no problems are discovered in examinations at the hospital.
There are also suspected symptoms that can travel throughout the body. For instance, it may be abdominal pain today, stomach ache tomorrow, and headache the day after tomorrow or other symptoms a few days later. Yet, no diseases are diagnosed in clinical examinations. These conditions need to be treated differently from physical illnesses because they are psychological in nature.
Helping believers with psychological problems requires a professional pastoral counseling approach. This approach is Bible-based while integrating psychological expertise. At present, pastoral counseling is an emerging field in China. The number of domestic pastors who have the National Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security certified second and third-level psychological counselor certificate is very low. Pastors who specialize in pastoral counseling in China are even fewer.
At present, there are relatively few seminaries that offer pastoral counseling courses in China. At the same time, there is a lack of professional, systematic pastoral counseling-related literature. As far as I know, Nanjing Union Seminary has invited Ms. Feng Shuxian to offer full pastoral counseling courses whereas Jiangsu Seminary offers a portion of this course. Other seminaries may have similar workshops and short-term training. In this context, we are constantly promoting pastoral counseling, wanting it to have a place in the theological education system in the country.
CCD: What are other ways to promote pastoral counselling?
Pastor Gu: I prefer aiding local pastors. Equip them with professional pastoral counseling knowledge and they may help their congregation better. God's work is not done by one person, but by a group. When I help a believer I have only helped one person, but if I help a pastor, then I may be helping the entire church or a group. If our pastors have expertise in this area and seminaries offer relevant pastoral counseling courses, they will be better able to mentor believers to deal with subsequent public events similar to the current pandemic. Believers in turn can help many in their communities.
CCD: How have you helped these local pastors?
Pastor Gu: These past years I have been invited to teach more counseling courses in some CC&TSPM churches in Fujian, Anhui, Yunnan and Jiangsu provinces.
My training focuses on equipping these pastors with more expertise in listening, empathy, and research; and how to identify common psychological problems such as depression, anxiety, phobias, and low self-esteem. In fact, the Bible is a good psychological counseling book. On the basis of the principles of the Bible, pastors can treat believers objectively and provide counseling services by using psychological techniques. That is what Paul said, "Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn." (Romans 12:15)
When I conduct pastoral counselling training in local churches, I find many full-time ministers there are patients themselves. They also have many psychological problems of their own that cannot be solved. Their ministries have gradually evolved into a heavy burden. During these two years, my pattern is to usually do half-a-day of training and then half-a-day of practice counseling with local pastors with serious psychological problems.
CCD: When it comes to psychology, there may be some churches or pastors who have issues with the field. Have you encountered any obstacles during your pastoral counseling training? How have you faced them?
Pastor Gu: Yes, especially among some older local pastors who lack an understanding of psychological problems and are rather authoritative in their churches. Believers' serious psychological problems are collectively treated as, "You are bound by the devil."
I know a case where a girl had been diagnosed with schizophrenia in a hospital, but the elders of her local church believed that she had been possessed. So they used Christian exorcism to help her by demanding her family not let the girl out, not watch TV, not use a mobile phone and required her to read the Bible, sing hymns, and pray all day. Some loving believers went to her house at midnight to pray for her. Their methods did not cure the patient. Instead her condition was aggravated. Later, a non-ordained pastor from the same church who had participated in a pastoral counselling training course introduced the patient to me. I helped her by referring her to the Shanghai Mental Health Center. The girl was treated there for 20 days to bring her condition under control. When I was doing counseling training in that local area, the elder of that church was still claiming, "His counseling is useless. Come to me for help. It's simply a matter of demon possession."
There is another situation where pastors failed to grasp the principle of necessary boundaries, which means that believers with psychological problems are not getting the professional help they need.
Around two years ago I was invited to a city in Fujian Province to do training for a CC&TSPM church where I met a non-ordained pastor. Out of kindness, she took me home where she cared for a severe mentally ill and violent patient who had been abandoned by her family. As a result, this caused the pastor's family a lot of problems. The patient sometimes even beat and swore at the pastor and her family. Knowing the case, I helped the pastor understand her boundaries, that there are things she is not able to do. There are times when we need to seek help from the government and the community by sending the patient to a mental hospital for treatment.
The non-ordained pastor felt that we Christians should have love. However, I told her what the "principle of boundaries" was. I told her, "This 'love' is beyond your limits and has affected your family. If this patient has a violent outburst, the consequences would be very serious and cause a lot of pain to your family."
At the moment some local pastors have no knowledge of pastoral counseling and do not approve of it, which is understandable to me. It requires time for them to acknowledge this relatively new field.
(Note: Pastor Gu Zhourong is a pastor of a church in Jiangsu Province and a national second-level counselor. In order to better help the public, the pastor established a counseling clinic called "Voice of Heart.")
- Translated by Charlie Li
【专访】教牧心理辅导资深牧者：疫情之下，心理疾病不可忽视！ 经历两个多月的抗疫时间，人们或遭遇疾病困苦、或面临经济重压、或爆发家庭矛盾，人们的心灵也承受着恐慌与不安，甚至有的人出现了严重的心理问题。有文章称，疫情过后抑郁症患者将暴增，而重疫区武汉900万人的创伤后遗症也不容忽视。 日前，本报采访了国家二级心理咨询师、教牧心理辅导资深牧者顾周荣牧师，请他谈及教会能够做什么心理疏导。 福音时报：疫情期间，您关注及接触到的人群中，出现了哪些心理状况？ 顾牧师：很多人出现焦虑、抑郁、情绪低落、失眠、头痛、心悸、害怕死亡等问题。有些家庭矛盾在这期间一下子爆发，还有工作、生活各方面的问题。昨天晚上我接到了一个信徒的求助电话，由于原生家庭的问题以及工作不顺，近期她变得烦躁、易怒，她希望寻求我的帮助。 实际上，疫情期间也是考验信仰的时候。真正有信仰的人，过得是信心的生活，遇到问题更多的是仰望上帝。还有一部分人，虽然是基督徒，但是他们没有真正的内在信仰生活，遇到问题可能更多的是抱怨、发怒、恐慌，这就陷入到内在生命的恶性循环中。 福音时报：疫情期间，社会上出现了很多心理辅导热线，有些基督教机构及教会也提供了类似的热线。您怎么看待这种现象？据您了解，这类热线效果如何？ 顾牧师：我所在的江阴市心理健康协会就推出了心理辅导热线，我也有参与。目前的情况看起来，我发现社会整体对于心理辅导方面的意识还没有跟上来，很少人会把心理问题当成一种很严重的问题来看待和解决。 我在实际的辅导中也发现一个问题，在疫情期间心理咨询机构中在线参与辅导者，有部分人员虽然已经取得了国家二级或三级心理咨询师资格证，但是没有从事心理咨询这个行业。在疫情期间这一部分咨询师虽然用很高的热情积极参与在线辅导，但因为实践经验不足，能够给予求助者的帮助很有限。对于这种情况，我建议慎重考虑，因为有很多心理问题必须要以专业的心理学理论知识并结合实际经验才能更好帮助求助者，并不是凭着一腔热情就能够解决的。 同样，在疫情期间有很多教会提供了教牧热线，这是好事情。如果涉及到信仰问题，教会可以提供很多帮助。如果涉及到心理问题的话，轻度的心理问题牧者可以帮助解决，若是出现高焦虑、易发怒、失眠、抑郁等重症心理问题的信徒，我建议还是要交给心理辅导的专业人士来帮助。这里涉及到“界限原则”，就是我们牧者不要把自己当成“救世主”，要明白我们能给予信徒的帮助是有限度的，这个界限非常重要。 福音时报：牧者怎样才能更专业地帮助出现心理问题的信徒呢? 顾牧师：很多基督徒认为，心理问题只要通过祷告就能够解决，可是忽略了心理问题是一种病。如果当地牧者不具备专业的心理学知识，可能会把信徒高抑郁、高焦虑引起的幻觉与基督教里的神秘主义，诸如异梦、异象联系起来；把精神分裂症患者看作是被鬼附。 我前段时间遇到一个信徒，他两年前遇到重大的打击，内心一直没有得到安慰，由于长时间处于负面情绪中，身体出现了病理性的神经症。身体上感到这不舒服那不舒服，可是到医院检查，也查不出任何问题。 还有疑病症，也会出现躯体症状，并且会在整个身体上游走。比如说今天可能是肚子痛，明天可能是胃痛，后天可能是头痛，再过几天可能是其他的躯体症状，可是到很多医院去检查就是查不出病来。这种情况也要对症下药，从心理学角度来解决。 帮助信徒解决心理问题，需要专业的教牧辅导方法。教牧辅导的全称是教牧心理辅导，是以《圣经》为基础，结合心理学的专业知识来辅导信徒。目前，教牧辅导在国内还属于比较新兴的领域，国内牧者有国家人社部认证的二级、三级心理咨询师证书的比例非常低，国内在专业从事教牧辅导工作的牧者也寥寥无几。 目前国内开设教牧辅导课程的神学院校比较少，同时也缺少专业、系统的教牧辅导相关的书籍。据我所知，除了金陵神学院邀请冯淑仙老师开设教牧辅导课程以外，江苏神学院有一部分这方面的课程，其他神学院或有类似的讲座和短期培训。在这种现状之下，我们在不断地推动教牧辅导在国内的神学教育体系中占有一席之地。 福音时报：还有哪些方法可以推广教牧辅导呢？ 顾牧师：我倾向于帮助更多的基层教会牧者，让他们获得专业的教牧辅导知识，然后他们去更好地帮助众信徒。上帝的工作不是一个人去做的，要一群人去做，我帮助一个人只能帮助这一个人，我帮助一位牧者，可能是帮助他们整个教会或者帮助一群人。如果我们的牧者都有这方面的专业知识，神学院校也开设了相关的教牧辅导专业课程，那么以后再遇到新冠肺炎疫情类似的公共事件，牧者就能够更好地辅导信徒，信徒也能够去帮助许多社会上的人。 福音时报：您是如何帮助这些基层教会牧者的？ 顾牧师：我这几年受邀去福建、安徽、云南和江苏省内一些两会和教会开设教牧辅导培训班比较多。 我的培训侧重于给这些教牧人员专业技能装备，比如专门的心理学技巧——如何去聆听、共情、收集资料，如何去鉴别抑郁症、焦虑症、恐惧症、自卑等常见的心理问题。实际上，《圣经》是一本很好的心理辅导书，在《圣经》的原则基础上，教牧人员以客观的态度尊重信徒，用心理学技巧尝试去帮助辅导他们。也就是保罗所说的“与喜乐的人要同乐；与哀哭的人要同哭。”（罗马书 12:15） 此外，我在各地两会开设教牧人员培训班的时候，发现在基层教会很多的专职传道人都是带病侍奉，他们自身也有很多心理问题无法解决，侍奉慢慢变成了沉重的负担。我这两年外出培训，通常情况下是半天时间上课，另外半天则在不停地辅导有严重心理问题的基层教牧人员。 福音时报：一提到心理学，可能有些教会或牧者有顾虑。您在做教牧心理辅导培训的过程中，有没有遇到过阻拦或障碍呢？您是如何面对的？ 顾牧师：有。特别是一些年龄偏大的基层教会牧者，他们自身缺乏心理学专业知识，在教会中权威性比较强，遇到有严重心理问题的信徒，会一概归为“你被魔鬼给捆绑了。” 我曾经遇到过这样一个案例：有个女孩已经被医院确诊为精神分裂症，但是当地教会的长老认为她是被鬼附，就使用基督教内驱病赶鬼的方法，要求家人不让女孩出门、不让看电视、手机，要求女孩必须整天读经、唱诗、祷告，个别有爱心的信徒在半夜去她家给她祷告等。从实际效果来看，不但没有医治好女孩，还加重了她的病情。后来教会有一位参加过教牧辅导培训的义工传道人把她推介给我，我根据女孩的实际情况帮她转介到上海精神卫生中心，女孩在那里治疗了20天就把病情控制住了。我在当地做辅导培训的时候，那里教会的长老还在说，“他那个心理咨询是没用的，到我这里来吧，这就是被魔鬼捆绑。” 还有一种情况，是牧者没有把握界限原则，有心理问题的信徒反而得不到专业的帮助。 我前两年受邀去福建省某市两会培训班讲课，遇到一位传道人，她出于好心把一个已经被家庭遗弃，有暴力行为的重症精神病患者接到自己家里来照顾。结果，这给她的家庭带来了很多问题，这个精神病患者有时甚至会打骂这位传道人和她的家人。在这种情况下，我告诉这位传道人要有界限，有些事情是我们力所不能及的，应该去寻求政府和社区的帮助，把这个患者送到精神病院去治疗。 这位传道人觉得，我们基督徒应该有爱心。但是我告诉她什么是“界限原则”，“这种‘爱’已经过了你力所能及的界限，已经影响到你的家庭，如果有一天这个有暴力行为的重症精神病人病情发作，那后果将会非常严重，会给你的家庭带来沉重的伤痛。” 当下一些基层教会的牧者对教牧心理辅导没有认识或不认可，我可以理解，这需要时间吧。 （注：顾周荣牧师为江苏一教会牧师、国家二级心理咨询师，在教会牧养之余为了更好地帮助大众，开设有“心语空间”心理咨询工作室。） https://www.gospeltimes.cn/article/index/id/51680
Since the Covid-19 outbreak over two months ago, people have suffered from diseases, faced financial stress or experienced family conflict. People's minds have also been disturbed by panic and uneasiness, even leading to serious psychological problems among some people. Reports suggest that after the pandemic the number of depression sufferers might increase sharply. In the heavily stricken areas of Wuhan, the traumatic effects on its population of nine million people cannot be overlooked.
Recently, China Christian Daily interviewed Pastor Gu Zhourong, a pastoral counselor who gave ideas about what psychological counseling services the church can provide.
CCD: What are the psychological conditions of the people with whom you are working during this outbreak?
Pastor Gu: The conditions of many persons include anxiety, depression, stress, insomnia, headache, heart palpitations, or fear of death. Some family conflicts have flared up during this time. There are also work and life issues. I got a call for help from a believer last night who recently became very anxious and irritable because of problems she encountered both at home and work. She wanted to seek my help.
This is a time in which our faith is tested. People who really believe and live a life of faith often look to God even more when encountering problems. There are also believers who have no real inner life of faith. Such believers often complain, are angry or experience panic more than they rely on God. They may find themselves caught in a vicious circle.
CCD: During the outbreak, many counseling hotlines have emerged and some Christian institutions and churches have provided similar services. What do you think of this development? As far as you are concerned, how effective is this kind of hotline?
Pastor Gu: The Jiangyin City Mental Health Association with which I work has launched a counseling hotline. I find that our society as a whole has not been aware or kept up with the need for counseling. Very few people perceive psychological problems as serious enough to require serious solutions.
In my work during the outbreak, I have found that some hotline counselors have little experience, even though they have obtained a national secondary or third-level psychological counselor qualification. During the outbreak, these counsellors are enthusiastic and proactive in helping people online, but due to the lack of practical experience the help they can provide to seekers is limited. I believe careful consideration should be given because there are many psychological problems that can only be addressed with solid professional and theoretical knowledge combined with practical experience. They cannot be solved with mere passion.
Many churches have done well in providing a pastoral hotline during the outbreak. When it comes to matters of faith, the Church can do a lot to help. When it comes to psychological problems, mild cases can be solved by pastors. However, for believers who suffer from high anxiety, irritability, insomnia, depression and other serious psychological problems, I suggest they consult with professional counselors. There is a "principle of boundaries;" we pastors should not think of ourselves as "saviors." It is important to understand that there is a limit to the help we can give believers.
CCD: How can pastors be more professional in helping believers with psychological problems?
Pastor Gu: Many Christians think that psychological problems can be solved by prayer, without acknowledging that these problems are an illness. If local pastors do not have professional knowledge, they may associate the hallucinations that accompany deep depression and anxiety suffered by believers with a mystical Christian world of dreams and visions; the patients of schizophrenia might be viewed as being possessed by demons.
I recently met a believer who had a major blow in life two years ago, and the patient's mental state was not stable. As a result, pathological neurosis may occur in the body due to prolonged negative emotions. Physically, the patient complains of discomfort in different parts of the body, but no problems are discovered in examinations at the hospital.
There are also suspected symptoms that can travel throughout the body. For instance, it may be abdominal pain today, stomach ache tomorrow, and headache the day after tomorrow or other symptoms a few days later. Yet, no diseases are diagnosed in clinical examinations. These conditions need to be treated differently from physical illnesses because they are psychological in nature.
Helping believers with psychological problems requires a professional pastoral counseling approach. This approach is Bible-based while integrating psychological expertise. At present, pastoral counseling is an emerging field in China. The number of domestic pastors who have the National Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security certified second and third-level psychological counselor certificate is very low. Pastors who specialize in pastoral counseling in China are even fewer.
At present, there are relatively few seminaries that offer pastoral counseling courses in China. At the same time, there is a lack of professional, systematic pastoral counseling-related literature. As far as I know, Nanjing Union Seminary has invited Ms. Feng Shuxian to offer full pastoral counseling courses whereas Jiangsu Seminary offers a portion of this course. Other seminaries may have similar workshops and short-term training. In this context, we are constantly promoting pastoral counseling, wanting it to have a place in the theological education system in the country.
CCD: What are other ways to promote pastoral counselling?
Pastor Gu: I prefer aiding local pastors. Equip them with professional pastoral counseling knowledge and they may help their congregation better. God's work is not done by one person, but by a group. When I help a believer I have only helped one person, but if I help a pastor, then I may be helping the entire church or a group. If our pastors have expertise in this area and seminaries offer relevant pastoral counseling courses, they will be better able to mentor believers to deal with subsequent public events similar to the current pandemic. Believers in turn can help many in their communities.
CCD: How have you helped these local pastors?
Pastor Gu: These past years I have been invited to teach more counseling courses in some CC&TSPM churches in Fujian, Anhui, Yunnan and Jiangsu provinces.
My training focuses on equipping these pastors with more expertise in listening, empathy, and research; and how to identify common psychological problems such as depression, anxiety, phobias, and low self-esteem. In fact, the Bible is a good psychological counseling book. On the basis of the principles of the Bible, pastors can treat believers objectively and provide counseling services by using psychological techniques. That is what Paul said, "Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn." (Romans 12:15)
When I conduct pastoral counselling training in local churches, I find many full-time ministers there are patients themselves. They also have many psychological problems of their own that cannot be solved. Their ministries have gradually evolved into a heavy burden. During these two years, my pattern is to usually do half-a-day of training and then half-a-day of practice counseling with local pastors with serious psychological problems.
CCD: When it comes to psychology, there may be some churches or pastors who have issues with the field. Have you encountered any obstacles during your pastoral counseling training? How have you faced them?
Pastor Gu: Yes, especially among some older local pastors who lack an understanding of psychological problems and are rather authoritative in their churches. Believers' serious psychological problems are collectively treated as, "You are bound by the devil."
I know a case where a girl had been diagnosed with schizophrenia in a hospital, but the elders of her local church believed that she had been possessed. So they used Christian exorcism to help her by demanding her family not let the girl out, not watch TV, not use a mobile phone and required her to read the Bible, sing hymns, and pray all day. Some loving believers went to her house at midnight to pray for her. Their methods did not cure the patient. Instead her condition was aggravated. Later, a non-ordained pastor from the same church who had participated in a pastoral counselling training course introduced the patient to me. I helped her by referring her to the Shanghai Mental Health Center. The girl was treated there for 20 days to bring her condition under control. When I was doing counseling training in that local area, the elder of that church was still claiming, "His counseling is useless. Come to me for help. It's simply a matter of demon possession."
There is another situation where pastors failed to grasp the principle of necessary boundaries, which means that believers with psychological problems are not getting the professional help they need.
Around two years ago I was invited to a city in Fujian Province to do training for a CC&TSPM church where I met a non-ordained pastor. Out of kindness, she took me home where she cared for a severe mentally ill and violent patient who had been abandoned by her family. As a result, this caused the pastor's family a lot of problems. The patient sometimes even beat and swore at the pastor and her family. Knowing the case, I helped the pastor understand her boundaries, that there are things she is not able to do. There are times when we need to seek help from the government and the community by sending the patient to a mental hospital for treatment.
The non-ordained pastor felt that we Christians should have love. However, I told her what the "principle of boundaries" was. I told her, "This 'love' is beyond your limits and has affected your family. If this patient has a violent outburst, the consequences would be very serious and cause a lot of pain to your family."
At the moment some local pastors have no knowledge of pastoral counseling and do not approve of it, which is understandable to me. It requires time for them to acknowledge this relatively new field.
(Note: Pastor Gu Zhourong is a pastor of a church in Jiangsu Province and a national second-level counselor. In order to better help the public, the pastor established a counseling clinic called "Voice of Heart.")
- Translated by Charlie Li
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